Not for nothing

[GUT]

Thanks Gut. I don't think I exaggerated.

Mike

Nor do I.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Bridewell;417217]

Pierre.

You tell us that this thread is not about the GSG and accuse others of going "off topic" for mentioning it; yet you were the first one to do so. If this thread is not about the GSG, why make reference to it at all?

Naturally I had to mention it to explain that this is not a discussion about it.

As you rightly point out, there were two claimed versions of the graffito:

Halse alludes to "not the men that will be blamed for nothing"

Long says "the men that will not be blamed for nothing"

And now you directly start discussing it anyway.

Neither has "not for nothing"

And this is not a discussion about it.

What is the relevance of this thread to "Ripper Discussions" (which is where you have posted it) if references to the GSG are off topic?

The relevance is to examine possible uses of an idiomatic expression in Victorian times.

Moving on from that, I'm not sure why you've included literary references here. Someone with a more than basic education would allude to "men who", not "men that".

"Not for nothing" is a claim or statement that something has been done or said with good reason but the relevance to the Whitechapel Murders eludes me (as it has others) because it doesn't appear except in the GSG where the words are separated by others.

Right time and place and an interesting idiom are interesting and may help our understanding of the circumstances in 1888.

If you start extracting words from sentences you change the meaning, so why those words?

No, you see, the function of the words "not for nothing" is very relevant for our possible interpretations.

"Not for nothing" is an idiom with a specific function and meaning.

Why not these:

"The Juwes are nothing".
"The Juwes are not men"
"The Juwes are the men that will"
"The Juwes are the men that will not"
"The Juwes are blamed, not nothing"
"The men will be blamed"
"The men will be nothing"

Because they are not idioms.

They are all combinations or words which appear in the GSG in that order.

We don't know (thanks to Warren) the exact wording but no version has ever been found which includes the phrase "not for nothing" - so what is the point of this?

The idiom is interesting and there are many uses of it. So if you have found some examples of it from the East End in Victorian times, please feel free to share them.

Cheers, Pierre

[Damaso Marte]

this one is weird even by the standards of Pierre threads

[Pcdunn]

Interesting, Bridewell.

Perhaps the GSG author should have phrased it as "Not for nothing the Juwes / Judges will be blamed for..." [What? "Nothing" yet again? I'm not sure it is any clearer this way than either of the two original phrasings.]

I did notice that the words "not," "for," and "nothing" all appear in the same sequence in both possible transcriptions of the chalked message, though with words missing in between them.

[Bridewell]

Pierre.

You tell us that this thread is not about the GSG and accuse others of going "off topic" for mentioning it; yet you were the first one to do so. If this thread is not about the GSG, why make reference to it at all?

As you rightly point out, there were two claimed versions of the graffito:

Halse alludes to "not the men that will be blamed for nothing"

Long says "the men that will not be blamed for nothing"

Neither has "not for nothing"

What is the relevance of this thread to "Ripper Discussions" (which is where you have posted it) if references to the GSG are off topic?

Moving on from that, I'm not sure why you've included literary references here. Someone with a more than basic education would allude to "men who", not "men that".

"Not for nothing" is a claim or statement that something has been done or said with good reason but the relevance to the Whitechapel Murders eludes me (as it has others) because it doesn't appear except in the GSG where the words are separated by others.

If you start extracting words from sentences you change the meaning, so why those words? Why not these:

"The Juwes are nothing".
"The Juwes are not men"
"The Juwes are the men that will"
"The Juwes are the men that will not"
"The Juwes are blamed, not nothing"
"The men will be blamed"
"The men will be nothing"

They are all combinations or words which appear in the GSG in that order.

We don't know (thanks to Warren) the exact wording but no version has ever been found which includes the phrase "not for nothing" - so what is the point of this?

[miss marple]

Not for nothing is good for nothing.

Miss Marple
.

[The Good Michael]

Sums it up nicely in my opinion.

Thanks Gut. I don't think I exaggerated.

Mike

[andy1867]

Read through the thread but
"I can't get no satisfaction" ...from it
Its simply grasping too far..isn't it.?
No doubt there's an end product to it all, and it will all come together?

[GUT]

I remember something like this: "I know who's done it, but I have to do more research to prove that it isn't him. If it were him, as my current research has uncovered and thus far, is irrefutable, it would be bad. I sincerely want to be wrong, but I fear I am right."

This kind of thing. It was dramatic bullshit and meant nothing then, and less now.

Mike

Sums it up nicely in my opinion.

[The Good Michael]

But didn't he tell us the other day that he has no suspect, in spite of his first ever post being "I think I've found him"

I remember something like this: "I know who's done it, but I have to do more research to prove that it isn't him. If it were him, as my current research has uncovered and thus far, is irrefutable, it would be bad. I sincerely want to be wrong, but I fear I am right."

This kind of thing. It was dramatic bullshit and meant nothing then, and less now.

Mike

[GUT]

Because Pierre has a found something that his suspect wrote that uses the phrase not for nothing.

But didn't he tell us the other day that he has no suspect, in spite of his first ever post being "I think I've found him"

[GUT]

This again? Are you on a quest to populate the forum with your thoughts on the GSG, Pierre?



If this doesn't make it clear, I don't know what will.

I think he is on a quest to drive everyone insane with his rubbish.

[Abby Normal]

But why are we comparing with "not for nothing"? What does the expression "not for nothing" have to do with the Ripper case?

Because Pierre has a found something that his suspect wrote that uses the phrase not for nothing.

[Flower and Dean]

This again? Are you on a quest to populate the forum with your thoughts on the GSG, Pierre?

My dear boy, you are, as usual, confused. No-one is saying, or has said, that the expression "not for nothing" is "pure and simple cockney from the street in Victorian Whitechapel".

In fact, no-one has referred to the expression "not for nothing" at all because it is not part of the Ripper case.

But the use of the double negative in a sentence such as, to take a random example, "the men who will not be blamed for nothing" is pure cockney, although not only cockney by any means.

I gave you an "authentic" example of such use of double negative by a London prisoner who said "I ain't done nothing" when arrested.

In the expression "not for nothing", a true double negative is not to be found, so it's completely different from any expression relating to the Ripper case which it seems I'm not allowed to mention in this thread.

If this doesn't make it clear, I don't know what will.

[GUT]

Would someone be lees inclined to write a sentence with a double negative as opposed to speaking one?

Possibly vary be education and context of the writing.