Discourse about left-right-handedness

[Pierre]

No Pierre, think you have got confused here.

there is already space on the right side of the victim, if one accepts she is on the far left of the bed when attacked, moving her to the centre reduces the space on the right of the victim, it does not increase it.

Steve

No, Steve. She was on her right side near the door in the wall when she was killed. The she was moved towards her left side.

This left a space on the right side of the bed, her right.

Pierre

[Elamarna]

OK,

and moving the victim from side A to side B also gave a space on the bed itself, on the right side of the victim.

Pierre

No Pierre, think you have got confused here.

there is already space on the right side of the victim, if one accepts she is on the far left of the bed when attacked, moving her to the centre reduces the space on the right of the victim, it does not increase it.


Steve

[Pierre]

Pierre
I would suggest moved to allow better acess.

The bed is not large so I doubt the effect would be much.
Give a few inches of space that is all I see

Steve

OK,

and moving the victim from side A to side B also gave a space on the bed itself, on the right side of the victim.

Pierre

[Elamarna]

Yes, I'm not saying there is proof the cut was left-to-right (right-handed). I am only pointing out that the assumption it was right-to-left (left-handed) is not necessarily correct.

Hi Jon, yes, agree, but would argue probably.

In my view Phillips is merely stating the obvious.
As the body was found, the blood soaked section of the mattress lay to the right of the neck, therefore he concludes the right carotid artery was severed first.
As the evidence presents itself, it would hardly make sense to say it was the left carotid artery that was severed first.

Disagree there Jon, but it is I do accept open to several interpretations.

I believe that he would not say the right so categorically, if the left was also significantly damaged.

Also, there was some distance between the blood soaked side of the bed and the cut to the throat, hence Dr. Phillips assumed the body had been pulled away from the wall.
Phillips, like bond, is assuming the body was always on its back.
This is where Dr. Bond's observations come into play, by stating it was not possible to identify the direction of the fatal cut - be it L-R or R-L.

If feel they could be saying she was on her side, again its down to interpretation, and nothing is 100 conclusive.

Kelly could just as easily have been facing the wall, or face down at that side of the bed. Typical intercourse was from the rear anyway with women of this class. Anal intercourse was the best form of prevention for the time.
Her killer is behind her when he struck.

Agree 100%

After slitting her throat he climbs off the bed and rolls her over onto her back. Which now creates some distance between the blood soaked side of the bed and the cut throat, and allows Phillips to assume the right carotid artery (being the nearest side to the blood) was the first to be cut.

However Phillips says that the body was moved, and so that assumption does not necessarily hold true.


Nothing 100% clear.
All of which just shows why it is possible to say left and right handed. and thus answering Pierre's question.

As normal a pleasure to debate with you Jon.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

If you move a dead body from side A of a bed to side B of a bed: What is the effect for side A?

Why would such an effect be useful?

I donīt have the answers, maybe you do.

Pierre
I would suggest moved to allow better acess.

The bed is not large so I doubt the effect would be much.
Give a few inches of space that is all I see


Steve

[Pierre]

Jon

Good points, however this merely highlights the problems in determining which hand was used does it not?

Phillips says that cause of death was by severing of the right carotid artery, the left appears not to be mentioned, and one could assume there was no damage, however such is contrary to Dr Bond's report.

One may ask if the wounds were as indicated by Bond, why does Phillips not mention the left and why is he so firm in giving the cause of death as being the severing of the right artery?

If the view you propose is correct, and it may be I agree, then for there to be arterial spray on the partition, the left carotid must have been cut, which appears contrary to Phillips.


This really highlights the issue i often raise about expert reports and views.

Whom of the two medics is right?

or are they both right and the reports just incomplete?

Given the above is it any wonder that there is a disagreement in the discourse Pierre is talking about.

Steve

Hi Steve,

If you move a dead body from side A of a bed to side B of a bed: What is the effect for side A?

Why would such an effect be useful?

I donīt have the answers, maybe you do.

Regards, Pierre

[Michael W Richards]

Kelly was presumed to be on the right hand side of the bed when attacked, as per the splatters on the partition wall. That in and of itself may offer some information about her possible relationship with her killer....which Ive been on record from the start, is indicated by the evidence, as being very close. I believe that its entirely possible that Mary Kelly was on her right side facing the wall...on the far right hand side of the bed.

What might that suggest?

That she was expecting someone to slip in bed behind her, perhaps a "spoon" position.

[Wickerman]

Jon

Good points, however this merely highlights the problems in determining which hand was used does it not?

Yes, I'm not saying there is proof the cut was left-to-right (right-handed). I am only pointing out that the assumption it was right-to-left (left-handed) is not necessarily correct.

Phillips says that cause of death was by severing of the right carotid artery, the left appears not to be mentioned, and one could assume there was no damage, however such is contrary to Dr Bond's report.

One may ask if the wounds were as indicated by Bond, why does Phillips not mention the left and why is he so firm in giving the cause of death as being the severing of the right artery?

In my view Phillips is merely stating the obvious.
As the body was found, the blood soaked section of the mattress lay to the right of the neck, therefore he concludes the right carotid artery was severed first.
As the evidence presents itself, it would hardly make sense to say it was the left carotid artery that was severed first.

Also, there was some distance between the blood soaked side of the bed and the cut to the throat, hence Dr. Phillips assumed the body had been pulled away from the wall.
Phillips, like bond, is assuming the body was always on its back.
This is where Dr. Bond's observations come into play, by stating it was not possible to identify the direction of the fatal cut - be it L-R or R-L.

Kelly could just as easily have been facing the wall, or face down at that side of the bed. Typical intercourse was from the rear anyway with women of this class. Anal intercourse was the best form of prevention for the time.
Her killer is behind her when he struck.

After slitting her throat he climbs off the bed and rolls her over onto her back. Which now creates some distance between the blood soaked side of the bed and the cut throat, and allows Phillips to assume the right carotid artery (being the nearest side to the blood) was the first to be cut.

[Elamarna]

Jon

Good points, however this merely highlights the problems in determining which hand was used does it not?

Phillips says that cause of death was by severing of the right carotid artery, the left appears not to be mentioned, and one could assume there was no damage, however such is contrary to Dr Bond's report.

One may ask if the wounds were as indicated by Bond, why does Phillips not mention the left and why is he so firm in giving the cause of death as being the severing of the right artery?


If the view you propose is correct, and it may be I agree, then for there to be arterial spray on the partition, the left carotid must have been cut, which appears contrary to Phillips.


This really highlights the issue i often raise about expert reports and views.

Whom of the two medics is right?

or are they both right and the reports just incomplete?



Given the above is it any wonder that there is a disagreement in the discourse Pierre is talking about.


Steve

[Wickerman]

The discourse says he was right handed. And left handed. Why?

I'm not familiar with what you are saying Pierre.
Which discourse?

[Wickerman]

Dear Jon

On looking again at your post there is a major problem I see.
You show a cut from Kelly's left hand side to her right.

While the sketch shows the cut starting on the right hand side of the bed; it is not her the right hand side of her body.

Surely the medical evidence says it was cut from her right hand side towards her left.

Steve

Hi Steve.

In his Nov. 10th report, Dr. Bond described the neck injuries thus:

In the first four the throats appear to have been cut from left to right. In the last case owing to the extensive mutilation it is impossible to say in what direction the fatal cut was made....

Later, in the same report Dr. Bond describes his assumption that Kelly was on her back when attacked.

In the Dorset Street case, he must have attacked from in front or from the left, as there would be no room for him between the wall and the part of the bed on which the woman was lying.

Clearly, Dr. Bond was assuming the body had not been moved.

[Michael W Richards]

So the concept is a concept of the free will, it is a concept of rational choice, where preferences rule.

I don't believe that choice is a factor here Pierre, each of us...excluding that 1% or less...has a preferred hand we use for accurate detailed movement. The 1% is equally skilled with both hands, in which case the above would certainly apply. But Im not putting my money on a 1%'r here.

That being said, I would think that by not moving the bed far enough away from the wall to access it from the right side, he gives us some insight. He was evidently comfortable making his scores, and cuts, from the left side of the bed. Ergo, he most likely was left handed. He likely held what he was cutting with his right hand,.... cut with left, place with right behind him on the table. It might explain why the inside of Marys left thigh is so mutilated.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve.

I'm not so sure about your point with Kelly.
Her body had been shifted towards the middle of the bed. The doctors have 'assumed' she was on her back when attacked.
She may not have been.
Kelly may have been facing the partition at the far side of the bed.

I suspect she was laid like this.

The reason being, I think she was entertaining, so she was on the bed with someone else. So she was nearest the partition.
Her throat was cut at this very edge of the bed.

Her client attacked her from behind.
The mattress was saturated with blood at this top corner.


Once her throat was cut, the killer rolls her over onto her back, into the position we see her in the surviving photo.

If this is how she died then the killer was right-handed, as with the other victims.

Dear Jon

On looking again at your post there is a major problem I see.
You show a cut from Kelly's left hand side to her right.

While the sketch shows the cut starting on the right hand side of the bed; it is not her the right hand side of her body.

Surely the medical evidence says it was cut from her right hand side towards her left.



Steve

[Elamarna]

The discourse says he was right handed. And left handed. Why?

Pierre

I am sorry but that is not what the discourse says.


Where it mentions left handedness it qualifies statements by use of words such as "may".

In the majority of cases left handedness is not mentioned at all by the medics.

What you appear to be ignoring is that views of the medics were best guesses.


Steve

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve.

I'm not so sure about your point with Kelly.
Her body had been shifted towards the middle of the bed. The doctors have 'assumed' she was on her back when attacked.
She may not have been.
Kelly may have been facing the partition at the far side of the bed.

I suspect she was laid like this.

The reason being, I think she was entertaining, so she was on the bed with someone else. So she was nearest the partition.
Her throat was cut at this very edge of the bed.

Her client attacked her from behind.
The mattress was saturated with blood at this top corner.


Once her throat was cut, the killer rolls her over onto her back, into the position we see her in the surviving photo.

If this is how she died then the killer was right-handed, as with the other victims.

Good point

I have always assume on her side and he cuts from behind her and to her side.
Having her on her back certainly makes a right handed cut more probable. However even if on her side a right hand is not impossible, just difficult.

Not sure the arterial spray ends up in the right place if as per your drawing, but certainly an interesting variation.

Steve