Discourse about left-right-handedness

[Wickerman]

So it is as I suggested that the photo cannot be relied upon as being a true picture of the exact position the boidy was found in.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Are we going round in circles now Trevor?

Yes Trevor, you are correct.
Though I am somewhat taken aback that you offer evidence only found in the press, a source you have shown so much disdain for on occasion.

I was explaining why you were correct, though whether you were just guessing is not entirely clear.

[Trevor Marriott]

They made a preliminary examination of the body and sent for a photographer, who made several photographs of the remains.
Morning Advertiser, Nov. 10.

While this examination was being made a photographer, who, in the meantime, had been sent for, arrived and took photographs of the body, the organs, the room, and its contents.
Times, Nov. 10.

Before the post mortem examination a photographer was set to work in the court and house.
Montreal Gazette, Nov. 12.

The photographer who had been called to photograph the room and the body removed his camera from the premises at half-past four,..
Echo, Nov. 10.

First, the doctors made a preliminary examination of the body, while a photographer was sent for. Whether they moved anything, the bed, body, limbs, we cannot know.
The photographer arrived and took photo's. Then the Post Mortem began.
After the P.M. was concluded the photographer removed his equipment, whether he took any further photo's after the P.M. is also not known.

So yes Trevor, the possibility exists that something was moved during the preliminary exam, prior to the photographer arriving and doing his thing.
The possibility also exists that some photo's were taken after the P.M. where it is certain that the bed and possibly limbs, had also been moved.

Edit: The fact a preliminary examination seems to have been conducted prior to the arrival of the photographer explains why the photograph of the body on the bed does not precisely align with the description of the body in Dr. Bond's report. In particular the position of the right arm.

So it is as I suggested that the photo cannot be relied upon as being a true picture of the exact position the boidy was found in.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

If as Ive suggested, (something which is substantiated within known evidence), she was on her right side facing the wall when the throat was cut, all he had to do is use his own weight to pin her down while he slit her throat, then when she is not struggling, just flip her onto her back. She would move from the right hand side to the middle of the bed, where she was found.

No argument here Michael. I've already sketched out what position I think she was in when attacked.

[Michael W Richards]

The body had to have been moved after the cut to the throat, the question is, in what way?

If as Ive suggested, (something which is substantiated within known evidence), she was on her right side facing the wall when the throat was cut, all he had to do is use his own weight to pin her down while he slit her throat, then when she is not struggling, just flip her onto her back. She would move from the right hand side to the middle of the bed, where she was found.

[Wickerman]

They made a preliminary examination of the body and sent for a photographer, who made several photographs of the remains.
Morning Advertiser, Nov. 10.

While this examination was being made a photographer, who, in the meantime, had been sent for, arrived and took photographs of the body, the organs, the room, and its contents.
Times, Nov. 10.

Before the post mortem examination a photographer was set to work in the court and house.
Montreal Gazette, Nov. 12.

The photographer who had been called to photograph the room and the body removed his camera from the premises at half-past four,..
Echo, Nov. 10.

First, the doctors made a preliminary examination of the body, while a photographer was sent for. Whether they moved anything, the bed, body, limbs, we cannot know.
The photographer arrived and took photo's. Then the Post Mortem began.
After the P.M. was concluded the photographer removed his equipment, whether he took any further photo's after the P.M. is also not known.

So yes Trevor, the possibility exists that something was moved during the preliminary exam, prior to the photographer arriving and doing his thing.
The possibility also exists that some photo's were taken after the P.M. where it is certain that the bed and possibly limbs, had also been moved.

Edit: The fact a preliminary examination seems to have been conducted prior to the arrival of the photographer explains why the photograph of the body on the bed does not precisely align with the description of the body in Dr. Bond's report. In particular the position of the right arm.

[Wickerman]

You don't need to Trevor, in this case I know the sources.

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes Trevor, you are correct.
Though I am somewhat taken aback that you offer evidence only found in the press, a source you have shown so much disdain for on occasion.

I didn't offer up any source

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

It is perhaps unwise to readily accept that pic as a true pic with regards to how the body was found. I stand to be corrected, but I believe that the pics were taken after the body had been examined in situ and may have been moved by those initially involved at the crime scene in some way in that early examinantion.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes Trevor, you are correct.
Though I am somewhat taken aback that you offer evidence only found in the press, a source you have shown so much disdain for on occasion.

[Pierre]

It is perhaps unwise to readily accept that pic as a true pic with regards to how the body was found. I stand to be corrected, but I believe that the pics were taken after the body had been examined in situ and may have been moved by those initially involved at the crime scene in some way in that early examinantion.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes, if you look at the other picture you see the first position of the leg, it is higher up than on MJK1. Also, you see the front door with the hinges in the background. It is very easy to understand why he barricaded the door.

[Pierre]

I'm not familiar with what you are saying Pierre.
Which discourse?

The discourse containing the ideas about the handedness of Jack the Ripper, i.e. statements about it.

[Trevor Marriott]

True, but as I said before, Phillips was only stating the obvious.
As the body was found, the neck wound was at least a foot away from the saturated corner of the mattress.
(I think we can still see her right arm extended between her torso and the wall, so maybe 2 ft distant?).



The body had to have been moved after the cut to the throat, the question is, in what way?

Phillips, and no doubt everyone at the time believed the body had been pulled away from the wall as found, on its back. I think this is not necessarily correct.
She could just as easily have been rolled over from initially been face down, or facing the wall, away from the saturated side of the mattress to end up on her back in the position seen in the photograph.


Always a pleasure Steve, the feeling is mutual.

It is perhaps unwise to readily accept that pic as a true pic with regards to how the body was found. I stand to be corrected, but I believe that the pics were taken after the body had been examined in situ and may have been moved by those initially involved at the crime scene in some way in that early examinantion.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

However Phillips says that the body was moved, and so that assumption does not necessarily hold true.

True, but as I said before, Phillips was only stating the obvious.
As the body was found, the neck wound was at least a foot away from the saturated corner of the mattress.
(I think we can still see her right arm extended between her torso and the wall, so maybe 2 ft distant?).



The body had to have been moved after the cut to the throat, the question is, in what way?

Phillips, and no doubt everyone at the time believed the body had been pulled away from the wall as found, on its back. I think this is not necessarily correct.
She could just as easily have been rolled over from initially been face down, or facing the wall, away from the saturated side of the mattress to end up on her back in the position seen in the photograph.

Nothing 100% clear.
All of which just shows why it is possible to say left and right handed. and thus answering Pierre's question.

As normal a pleasure to debate with you Jon.

Steve

Always a pleasure Steve, the feeling is mutual.

[Elamarna]

Relax, everyone makes mistakes.

Pierre

Thanks,

just disappointed that i didn't pick it up myself.



Steve

[Pierre]

Pierre and others,

My full apologies, at some early stage here I have got left and right mixed up in this case and then carried on using my first posts as a reference.

Of course she is on the far right of the bed, and the conventional theory puts the killer to her left.

However the arguments made still apply, I knew what I meant, just did not write it correctly.

Just to clarify, the killer was according to most on MJK's LEFT.

The alternative view, between the partition wall has the killer to her RIGHT.

Moving her to the middle produces space on the Right hand side, and reduces it on the LEFT hand side.

Always say when you make a silly mistake, admit it.



Steve

Relax, everyone makes mistakes.

Pierre

[Elamarna]

No, Steve. She was on her right side near the door in the wall when she was killed. The she was moved towards her left side.

This left a space on the right side of the bed, her right.

Pierre

Pierre and others,


My full apologies, at some early stage here I have got left and right mixed up in this case and then carried on using my first posts as a reference.

Of course she is on the far right of the bed, and the conventional theory puts the killer to her left.

However the arguments made still apply, I knew what I meant, just did not write it correctly.

Just to clarify, the killer was according to most on MJK's LEFT.

The alternative view, between the partition wall has the killer to her RIGHT.

Moving her to the middle produces space on the Right hand side, and reduces it on the LEFT hand side.


Always say when you make a silly mistake, admit it.




Steve