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  • #31
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    The handedness was determined by identifying where each throat cut was initiated and where it completed. Logic is used to identify the most probable mechanical method, and whether the killer was behind or looming above the victim. As you recall, some assumptions were that the throat cuts were made while the victims were already lying down.
    Hi Michael,

    Have you seen anything in the discourse about Kelly being positioned higher up than the others, not on the ground but on a bed, when she was killed and mutilated?

    Regards, Pierre

    Comment


    • #32
      Hi Pierre

      My personal suspicion is that the bias lay more with the police and coroner, but that is a personal belief. It must be remembered that we only have the official paper of record statements from the inquests for the most part and are missing the individual medical statements and autopsy records. Remember one of the coroners (Langham) was convinced the organ taking was for profit and asked questions along those lines.

      Regards Paul
      Last edited by kjab3112; 12-19-2016, 06:42 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Pierre,

        I do understand the difference in the two questions, unfortunately my view is that the differing discourse which existed was because there was no clear evidence from the crimes.



        Originally posted by Pierre View Post

        OK, letīs see if I can try to answer my own questions, just as an example:



        Answer: Professional people tended to believe things about their objects of study. These people believed that the killer was left handed. They also believed he was right handed. The core concept here is belief in the meaning of Bourdieu. It means that these professionals have invested their time and interest in the science of medicine and they obtained knowledge and a cultural capital which is expressed as belief in the sources - contrary to "guessing" as in a lottery.
        Pierre, the problem we have is that they were probably guessing; not a pure guess, what one terms an educated guess, based on the evidence.

        Why do I suggest this, well there is little in the evidence which gives any indication of which hand was used. There is nothing in that evidence which is conclusive with regards to hands used.



        Originally posted by Pierre View Post

        What can explain the variations in the discourse?

        Answer: They believed two things at the same time or they changed their belief and started believing the opposite. This leads to the questions: Why did they do so?

        The medics were looking at individual cases, and different medics had differing views, all drawn from the same evidence.

        I do not think that they therefore changed their views at all, it was simply that the evidence was not conclusive and was open to different interpretations.


        Looking at that evidence the first 4 of the C5, hint that it may have been a right hander, but it is only a hint.

        However in the Nichols case Llewellyn, while confirming the throat was cut left to right, suggested it "MAY" have been performed by a left hand, unfortunately he gives nothing to back this view.

        Kelly strongly suggests a left handed cut, that based on the generally accepted position for the killer(to the right of Kelly).

        It is easy to see why there was no clear picture from a forensic standpoint.



        Pierre this is why there was a variation; because the professionals were not sure.




        Originally posted by Pierre View Post

        Answer: This evidence is in the discourse. If we analyze it, we will probably have some evidence that is more valid and some that is less valid.

        I would suggest very little that is conclusive, and almost all of it can give a different result depending on the relative positions, sorry Pierre but it is hard to separate the discourse from the physical evidence.



        Originally posted by Pierre View Post
        Some people think that the evidence for Jack the Ripper being left handed is not present in the case of Kelly but there was a purely material problem in the room: he "could not" stand between a bed and a door.
        Surely it suggests a left handed cut, rather than right if he is on her right; not a right handed cut.


        Originally posted by Pierre View Post
        Is this an established historical fact?

        Did anyone in his time believe - and is it visible in the discourse - that Jack the Ripper choose the other side, not because of a small space but because of something else?

        I am not sure what you are asking here Pierre?
        The discourse seems to show an acceptance that she was attacked from her left hand side, I see nothing in the records to suggest anyone suggested anything else, if you believe there is maybe you could highlight such material.


        Originally posted by Pierre View Post
        And: Could not Jack the Ripper lift or move a bed?


        You have certainly suggested such already, the issue I have with this, putting aside any debate about partition doors and bed position, is the pattern of the arterial spray on the wall.

        If JtR cut from her from the right hand side (between bed and wall.), he would have been in the way of the aforementioned spray.

        Not only would he have been covered in blood, but there would be no spray on the wall. which does not appear to be the case.

        He would also be standing in the large deposit of blood under the right hand side head of the bed, if only for a short time, there is no mention of any indication of this at all.




        Originally posted by Pierre View Post

        What does the discourse say about this small space between the bed and the door?


        It tells us that the head of the bed was next to(or very close, because it cannot be more precise) the Arterial spray and large amount of blood next to it are a sure sign of where the attack took place.


        Originally posted by Pierre View Post
        As you see, the questions about the discurse generates new questions, and this is very interesting.


        Yes it does, however we still have the same question, why the variation?


        There appear to be a few possible answers, in no particular order:

        1. Different killer.

        2. Ambidextrous killer.

        3. Different Attack positions.

        4. Medics deliberatly misleading

        5. Medics just not sure

        6. Anything i have not covered


        Quickly I will dismiss 4, there is no source am aware of to suggest this.

        1 & 2 are certainly possible.

        3 does explain the differences and seems probably, and 5 is the natural lead on from there.



        Steve

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Pierre View Post
          Hi Michael,

          Have you seen anything in the discourse about Kelly being positioned higher up than the others, not on the ground but on a bed, when she was killed and mutilated?

          Regards, Pierre
          Interesting observation, but I believe the most salient points on Kelly concern how the killer accessed and performed the excisions. I presume, based on the crime scene, that the killer faced the bed from the room. That sort of indicates what hand was probably used. Ambidexterous people make up less than 1% of any given population, so its most probable this killer had a preferred hand.
          Michael Richards

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
            Interesting observation, but I believe the most salient points on Kelly concern how the killer accessed and performed the excisions. I presume, based on the crime scene, that the killer faced the bed from the room. That sort of indicates what hand was probably used. Ambidexterous people make up less than 1% of any given population, so its most probable this killer had a preferred hand.
            Yes, it is interesting.

            And you also say: "...its most probable this killer had a preferred hand"

            Could you please try to define the concept of "preferred hand"?

            Comment


            • #36
              Re "preferred hand"-- I think it is less a concept than a fact, Pierre, that most people will favor (or prefer) to use one hand more often than the other in daily activities. Some refer to it as having a "dominant hand", and discuss right-handeness or left-handeness.

              I am, for instance, left-handed.
              Pat D.
              ---------------
              Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
              ---------------

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
                Re "preferred hand"-- I think it is less a concept than a fact, Pierre, that most people will favor (or prefer) to use one hand more often than the other in daily activities. Some refer to it as having a "dominant hand", and discuss right-handeness or left-handeness.

                I am, for instance, left-handed.
                Would there happen to be any situations where you would not be able to use your left hand?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
                  Re "preferred hand"-- I think it is less a concept than a fact, Pierre, that most people will favor (or prefer) to use one hand more often than the other in daily activities. Some refer to it as having a "dominant hand", and discuss right-handeness or left-handeness.

                  I am, for instance, left-handed.
                  So the concept is a concept of the free will, it is a concept of rational choice, where preferences rule.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                    Would there happen to be any situations where you would not be able to use your left hand?
                    Yes, if my left hand was injured, or missing, it would be either difficult or impossible to use it.
                    Pat D.
                    ---------------
                    Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                    ---------------

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
                      However in the Nichols case Llewellyn, while confirming the throat was cut left to right, suggested it "MAY" have been performed by a left hand, unfortunately he gives nothing to back this view.

                      Kelly strongly suggests a left handed cut, that based on the generally accepted position for the killer(to the right of Kelly).
                      Hi Steve.

                      I'm not so sure about your point with Kelly.
                      Her body had been shifted towards the middle of the bed. The doctors have 'assumed' she was on her back when attacked.
                      She may not have been.
                      Kelly may have been facing the partition at the far side of the bed.

                      I suspect she was laid like this.

                      The reason being, I think she was entertaining, so she was on the bed with someone else. So she was nearest the partition.
                      Her throat was cut at this very edge of the bed.

                      Her client attacked her from behind.
                      The mattress was saturated with blood at this top corner.


                      Once her throat was cut, the killer rolls her over onto her back, into the position we see her in the surviving photo.

                      If this is how she died then the killer was right-handed, as with the other victims.
                      Regards, Jon S.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                        Hi Steve.

                        I'm not so sure about your point with Kelly.
                        Her body had been shifted towards the middle of the bed. The doctors have 'assumed' she was on her back when attacked.
                        She may not have been.
                        Kelly may have been facing the partition at the far side of the bed.

                        I suspect she was laid like this.

                        The reason being, I think she was entertaining, so she was on the bed with someone else. So she was nearest the partition.
                        Her throat was cut at this very edge of the bed.

                        Her client attacked her from behind.
                        The mattress was saturated with blood at this top corner.


                        Once her throat was cut, the killer rolls her over onto her back, into the position we see her in the surviving photo.

                        If this is how she died then the killer was right-handed, as with the other victims.
                        The discourse says he was right handed. And left handed. Why?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                          Hi Steve.

                          I'm not so sure about your point with Kelly.
                          Her body had been shifted towards the middle of the bed. The doctors have 'assumed' she was on her back when attacked.
                          She may not have been.
                          Kelly may have been facing the partition at the far side of the bed.

                          I suspect she was laid like this.

                          The reason being, I think she was entertaining, so she was on the bed with someone else. So she was nearest the partition.
                          Her throat was cut at this very edge of the bed.

                          Her client attacked her from behind.
                          The mattress was saturated with blood at this top corner.


                          Once her throat was cut, the killer rolls her over onto her back, into the position we see her in the surviving photo.

                          If this is how she died then the killer was right-handed, as with the other victims.

                          Good point

                          I have always assume on her side and he cuts from behind her and to her side.
                          Having her on her back certainly makes a right handed cut more probable. However even if on her side a right hand is not impossible, just difficult.

                          Not sure the arterial spray ends up in the right place if as per your drawing, but certainly an interesting variation.

                          Steve

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                            The discourse says he was right handed. And left handed. Why?
                            Pierre

                            I am sorry but that is not what the discourse says.


                            Where it mentions left handedness it qualifies statements by use of words such as "may".

                            In the majority of cases left handedness is not mentioned at all by the medics.

                            What you appear to be ignoring is that views of the medics were best guesses.


                            Steve
                            Last edited by Elamarna; 12-21-2016, 03:43 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                              Hi Steve.

                              I'm not so sure about your point with Kelly.
                              Her body had been shifted towards the middle of the bed. The doctors have 'assumed' she was on her back when attacked.
                              She may not have been.
                              Kelly may have been facing the partition at the far side of the bed.

                              I suspect she was laid like this.

                              The reason being, I think she was entertaining, so she was on the bed with someone else. So she was nearest the partition.
                              Her throat was cut at this very edge of the bed.

                              Her client attacked her from behind.
                              The mattress was saturated with blood at this top corner.


                              Once her throat was cut, the killer rolls her over onto her back, into the position we see her in the surviving photo.

                              If this is how she died then the killer was right-handed, as with the other victims.
                              Dear Jon

                              On looking again at your post there is a major problem I see.
                              You show a cut from Kelly's left hand side to her right.

                              While the sketch shows the cut starting on the right hand side of the bed; it is not her the right hand side of her body.

                              Surely the medical evidence says it was cut from her right hand side towards her left.



                              Steve

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                                So the concept is a concept of the free will, it is a concept of rational choice, where preferences rule.
                                I don't believe that choice is a factor here Pierre, each of us...excluding that 1% or less...has a preferred hand we use for accurate detailed movement. The 1% is equally skilled with both hands, in which case the above would certainly apply. But Im not putting my money on a 1%'r here.

                                That being said, I would think that by not moving the bed far enough away from the wall to access it from the right side, he gives us some insight. He was evidently comfortable making his scores, and cuts, from the left side of the bed. Ergo, he most likely was left handed. He likely held what he was cutting with his right hand,.... cut with left, place with right behind him on the table. It might explain why the inside of Marys left thigh is so mutilated.
                                Michael Richards

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