Apron placement as intimidation?

[Jon Guy]

No he doesnt say that. In his official signed inquest testimomy he says
"The clothes were drawn up above the abdomen- The upper part of the dress was pulled open a little way"

lets stick to the official testimony, or is some going to suggest the court recorder got this part also wrong

They have described the same thing.

[Trevor Marriott]

Well, he actually said:
"The clothes were thrown up. The upper part of the dress had been torn open."

Which is pretty much what we are seeing in the in situ sketch

No he doesnt say that. In his official signed inquest testimomy he says
"The clothes were drawn up above the abdomen- The upper part of the dress was pulled open a little way"

lets stick to the official testimony, or is someone going to suggest the court recorder got this part also wrong

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jon Guy]

Another poster suggested that the clothes were cut down the front and referred to the sketch. Dr Brown clearly states that was not the case in his testimony.

Well, he actually said:
"The clothes were thrown up. The upper part of the dress had been torn open."

Which is pretty much what we are seeing in the in situ sketch

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Jon.

The only item I suggest was cut from the body was the piece of apron.

Today, when a pathologist needs to remove the clothes from a body, but is concerned about disturbing wounds, the clothes are cut from the body.
In some cases it may be just a pants leg, or a shirt sleeve. Much depends on what the clothing is.
When a pathologist makes cuts in the clothes, the cuts are marked to alert investigators that those cuts are not evidence.

Obviously, forensics have progressed in leaps and bounds in the last century so I am not suggesting that what is done today was always the case.
Though I don't believe a high IQ is needed to determine that cutting away some of Eddowes under clothes would be the best option, while running the least chance of disturbing those abdominal wounds.

The body had been taken on a handcart do you not think all that bouncing and shaking around, the body would have been subjected to en route might have as you suggested disturbed the abdominal wounds in any event. So a slight movement of the body at the mortuary would be nothing in comparison

Of course all that shaking about may have caused the kidney and the uterus to be lost on transit !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

Hi Trevor

I don`t think they cut the clothing off Eddowes body because it would have confused matters when making a note of the condition of the clothing.

Chandlers lists the cuts to the clothing, which would be pointless if the clothes had been cut off the body at the mortuary.

Hi Jon.

The only item I suggest was cut from the body was the piece of apron.

Today, when a pathologist needs to remove the clothes from a body, but is concerned about disturbing wounds, the clothes are cut from the body.
In some cases it may be just a pants leg, or a shirt sleeve. Much depends on what the clothing is.
When a pathologist makes cuts in the clothes, the cuts are marked to alert investigators that those cuts are not evidence.

Obviously, forensics have progressed in leaps and bounds in the last century so I am not suggesting that what is done today was always the case.
Though I don't believe a high IQ is needed to determine that cutting away some of Eddowes under clothes would be the best option, while running the least chance of disturbing those abdominal wounds.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;402448]

And you are missing the point in as much as had she been wearing an apron with a piece missing, it would have been clearly visible as such and would have had to have been removed before any of the other clothing came off the body and would have been recorded as an item of clothing she was wearing and not a piece of old white apron listed amongst her possessions.

So the apron was not in her possession but it was left there by the killer?

[Trevor Marriott]

The drawing is questionable? Dr. Brown sketched it.

Another poster suggested that the clothes were cut down the front and referred to the sketch. Dr Brown clearly states that was not the case in his testimony.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[jerryd]

The bodice would be unbuttoned from the front !

That drawing is questionable as Dr Brown states that "the clothes were drawn up above the abdomen- the upper part of the dress was pulled open a little way"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The drawing is questionable? Dr. Brown sketched it.

[Trevor Marriott]

forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9989&page=15

See the sketch in post #149 in this thread for the answer.

The clothing in front was already cut or torn open completely, to judge from the drawing of the body in situ.

I'd think that the lower body clothing could be pulled downwards and off by lifting the body slightly and pulling on the back waistbands of the skirts. As for the bodice, again, lifting the body might allow the remains of the bodice to be pulled down and a slit made to remove it in halves.

The bodice would be unbuttoned from the front !

That drawing is questionable as Dr Brown states that "the clothes were drawn up above the abdomen- the upper part of the dress was pulled open a little way"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

A wise observation, and you will note it is not I that made the cutting of the clothes suggestion !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

All this exchange is concerned with is how a tied piece of apron could be removed without untying the knot.
And, the removed piece has one string still attached.

There isn't a wide range of solutions.

[Pcdunn]

forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9989&page=15

See the sketch in post #149 in this thread for the answer.

The clothing in front was already cut or torn open completely, to judge from the drawing of the body in situ.

I'd think that the lower body clothing could be pulled downwards and off by lifting the body slightly and pulling on the back waistbands of the skirts. As for the bodice, again, lifting the body might allow the remains of the bodice to be pulled down and a slit made to remove it in halves.

[Jon Guy]

Doesn't this also depend on whether the body was in rigor at the time? While pulling off the skirts might not have been that hard, I can guarantee that getting the upper body clothing off would have been a serious challenge if the arms were locked in rigor.

To be honest I don`t know if there was a standard procedure to stripping corpses. I imagine, that they did what was necessary at the time.

[Penhalion]

Doesn't this also depend on whether the body was in rigor at the time? While pulling off the skirts might not have been that hard, I can guarantee that getting the upper body clothing off would have been a serious challenge if the arms were locked in rigor.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor

I don`t think they cut the clothing off Eddowes body because it would have confused matters when making a note of the condition of the clothing.

Chandlers lists the cuts to the clothing, which would be pointless if the clothes had been cut off the body at the mortuary.

A wise observation, and you will note it is not I that made the cutting of the clothes suggestion !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jon Guy]

Hi Trevor

I don`t think they cut the clothing off Eddowes body because it would have confused matters when making a note of the condition of the clothing.

Chandlers lists the cuts to the clothing, which would be pointless if the clothes had been cut off the body at the mortuary.