Apron placement as intimidation?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I agree that Tabram was probably a JtR victim. McKenzie's a real enigma. The abdominal wounds were relatively superficial, however, the blood evidence strongly suggests that the killer was disturbed. In fact, PC Andrews must have arrived on the scene very soon after she was killed-so much so that it's been suggested that he was either the murderer himself, or at the very least he must have seen who the murderer was.

I agree he was disturbed probably by Andrews. The ripper was genius at avoiding just getting nicked. See stride, Nichols. He probably heard the pc coming and skidaddled.

McKenzie was a ripper victim. Very little doubt in my mind because of the hiked up dress like the rest. The superficial nature of the wound could be because of many things- the ripper was off his game, because he was drunk, sick weak, wasn't really hunting that night so didn't have his best blade and or disturbed etc.

ive seen a lot of people over the years ask whether the ripper was successful every time he went out to kill and my answer is of course not. No hunter is always going to be 100 successful every time you go out. You have these incomplete victims like stride, Nichols, and McKenzie and probably botched first attempt like mill wood, and I am sure there were time when he set out to kill and mutilate and came home empty handed for any number of reasons.

[Varqm]

If the killer had a bolt hole why can't he bring the apron with him,and not drop it and give a hint on where he was heading?

[c.d.]

He probably would have walked. Police didn,t have any evidence against him. He could have had alibis, denied the letters and the knife and graffito. The top doctors called to testify had contrary beliefs on his method of mutilation. Other than the case of Elizabeth Stride, no constable reported seeing a man with the woman murdered. And, the prosecutions top witnesses - Packer, Hutchinson, Schwartz, Lawende, Mrs.Maxwell, Mrs. Long - would disagree on his identity (similar to the witnesses charging Dr. Hessell in the Coram Street mystery).

Hello Robert,

I meant if he was caught in the act of killing Stride. It would have been a hanging offense as opposed to say a stern lecture. Thus, he had serious reason to be paranoid and skittish.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I see coles as a possibility but only slightly. too much time has passed, no cuts to the abdomen, and it was probably still sadler IMHO.

Hi Abby

After finding out that Thompson said that he heard someone walking away at a normal speed rather than running (as I'd previously thought ) I'd have to agree with you there. The mind plays tricks....

Regards
Herlock

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hey Herlock,

PC Thompson heard footsteps walking away shortly before he discovered Coles. Thompson was quoted as saying, "I nearly had him. He was only an arm’s length away, and I missed him" but this was written after his death and it's unknown if it was apocryphal statement. Either way, it's not what Thompson stated in his police report.

Had Coles been killed on 30th Sept 1888 instead of Stride, she probably would've been included as a Ripper victim, but of course based on the killer's movements on the double event, Eddowes might have been spared that night.

Hi Harry

I've just refreshed my jaded memory by reading Thompson's statement and he heard someone walking away at what seemed to him like a normal speed. I was pretty convinced that I remembered him saying that he'd heard someone running away! Just goes to show that you can't always be sure of what you think that you're sure of!
Obviously 'walking' doesn't point to a killer being disturbed in the act. I still don't think that she can be totally discounted but I agree with Abby that we probably have to list her as an unlikely victim of Jack (also taking into consideration the time gap.)

Regards
Herlock

[John G]

Hi Harry
Good post and I agree with everything you say. Except that it was over by xmas.
McKenzie was a ripper victim. I have it as a c7. Tab ram through McKenzie.

The mo and SIG is the same-as is the victimolgy, location and time.the similarities far out way the differences. I include tab ram and McKenzie because both include postmortem mutilation and focus on the abdomen. The clincher for me in both cases is the are found with the skirt hiked up to expose the private parts and abdomen, like the rest, showing a pre occupation with that area.

While the ripper probably attacked other women, mill wood being an early botched attempt, he more than likely IMHO, killed seven.

Hi Abby,

I agree that Tabram was probably a JtR victim. McKenzie's a real enigma. The abdominal wounds were relatively superficial, however, the blood evidence strongly suggests that the killer was disturbed. In fact, PC Andrews must have arrived on the scene very soon after she was killed-so much so that it's been suggested that he was either the murderer himself, or at the very least he must have seen who the murderer was.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I've been meaning to get other opinions on Coles and as you include McKenzie you've given me the opportunity. I'm unsure on the amount of victims but have always thought that perhaps we are a little too overconfident on the c5? MO's can surely change slightly due to circumstances? I think that I'm right in saying that most accept Stride as a victim and explain the lack of mutilation by the killer being interrupted by Diemschutz. Why not the same for Coles? If I remember correctly didn't PC Thompson hear someone running away as he discovered the body? Couldn't the killer have also been disturbed by hearing Thompson's regulation tread before carrying out any mutilations?

I'm undecided. I think that we have to consider McKenzie as at least a possible victim of Jack. Why not Coles?

Saying all of the above, I accept that it's off topic. Perhaps I should have started another thread but I just wanted a few opinions.

Regards
Herlock

I see coles as a possibility but only slightly. too much time has passed, no cuts to the abdomen, and it was probably still sadler IMHO.

[Robert St Devil]

Why are we talking about Kelly, Maxwell and Hutchinson on an "apron" thread?

because i didnt feel like talking about Lechmere or starting a new thread.

[Harry D]

Why not the same for Coles? If I remember correctly didn't PC Thompson hear someone running away as he discovered the body? Couldn't the killer have also been disturbed by hearing Thompson's regulation tread before carrying out any mutilations?

I'm undecided. I think that we have to consider McKenzie as at least a possible victim of Jack. Why not Coles?

Saying all of the above, I accept that it's off topic. Perhaps I should have started another thread but I just wanted a few opinions.

Hey Herlock,

PC Thompson heard footsteps walking away shortly before he discovered Coles. Thompson was quoted as saying, "I nearly had him. He was only an arm’s length away, and I missed him" but this was written after his death and it's unknown if it was apocryphal statement. Either way, it's not what Thompson stated in his police report.

Had Coles been killed on 30th Sept 1888 instead of Stride, she probably would've been included as a Ripper victim, but of course based on the killer's movements on the double event, Eddowes might have been spared that night.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Harry
Good post and I agree with everything you say. Except that it was over by xmas.
McKenzie was a ripper victim. I have it as a c7. Tab ram through McKenzie.

The mo and SIG is the same-as is the victimolgy, location and time.the similarities far out way the differences. I include tab ram and McKenzie because both include postmortem mutilation and focus on the abdomen. The clincher for me in both cases is the are found with the skirt hiked up to expose the private parts and abdomen, like the rest, showing a pre occupation with that area.

While the ripper probably attacked other women, mill wood being an early botched attempt, he more than likely IMHO, killed seven.

Hi Abby,

I've been meaning to get other opinions on Coles and as you include McKenzie you've given me the opportunity. I'm unsure on the amount of victims but have always thought that perhaps we are a little too overconfident on the c5? MO's can surely change slightly due to circumstances? I think that I'm right in saying that most accept Stride as a victim and explain the lack of mutilation by the killer being interrupted by Diemschutz. Why not the same for Coles? If I remember correctly didn't PC Thompson hear someone running away as he discovered the body? Couldn't the killer have also been disturbed by hearing Thompson's regulation tread before carrying out any mutilations?

I'm undecided. I think that we have to consider McKenzie as at least a possible victim of Jack. Why not Coles?

Saying all of the above, I accept that it's off topic. Perhaps I should have started another thread but I just wanted a few opinions.

Regards
Herlock

[Sam Flynn]

Why are we talking about Kelly, Maxwell and Hutchinson on an "apron" thread?

[Wickerman]

Hi Robert.

If someone was charged with Kelly's murder at 2-3:00 am, then Maxwell could be called by the defense in support of a death after 9:00 am., implying a different assailant. Assuming the accused had an alibi for the later time.

[Robert St Devil]

Surely Mrs Maxwell would be a defence witness not a prosecution witness.

G'day G U T

That's an interesting point; hopefully you'll elaborate. My presumption on your post is that the prosecution would have to decide on who to call - Hutchinson or Mrs. Maxwell (if discrepancies in their identification were risen); so the defense would select the other to cast suspicion on Mary Jane's ToD.

[Abby Normal]

Not sure why you quoted my post, if only as an excuse to repeat your multi-killer rhetoric.

But what the heck, I'll play.

The canonical victim list is not set in stone. The police at the time did not agree on the exact victim tally. There were some who put the number at six, accepting Tabram into the canon. Then there's Alice McKenzie, who Dr. Bond attributed to the Ripper. At any rate, Michael, why do you think that this particular group of victims were linked? The other murders in the Whitechapel file were violent crimes but they were missing the Ripper's signature, that's why they generally aren't included. Usually it's the likes of Tabram & McKenzie that are on the fringes because of the mutilation. Personally, knowing what we do about serial killers, and with the possible exception of Emma Smith, I don't think we can rule out any of them.

What I don't really understand is the specious belief that the murders must be identical to constitute a series. I guess it's the same kind of psychology adopted by conspiracy theorists. They think that by eschewing the status quo it grants them some kind of intellectual superiority, even when facts and reason aren't on their side.

Serial killer Richard Ramirez murdered both men & women of various ages, sometimes using strangulation, sometimes a gun, sometimes throat-slashing. Some were raped, some weren't. Then you have someone like Bundy who murdered young caucasian brunettes with parted hair. One has a diverse victimology, one doesn't. Some killers mix up their methodology, some don't. My point being that although criminal profiling can provide a blueprint for an investigation, it's not an exact science. However, in the Ripper's case, you have at least four victims all killed in the same neighbourhood, all with the same MO and post-mortem mutilation. You focus on discrepancies in skill level and escalation in violence as evidence of multiple-killers. Nevermind that the statistical improbability of there being more than one individual willing and able of murdering women in dangerous locales and taking their innards. With several of these madmen on the loose at the same time, the reign of terror was over by Christmas.

Hi Harry
Good post and I agree with everything you say. Except that it was over by xmas.
McKenzie was a ripper victim. I have it as a c7. Tab ram through McKenzie.

The mo and SIG is the same-as is the victimolgy, location and time.the similarities far out way the differences. I include tab ram and McKenzie because both include postmortem mutilation and focus on the abdomen. The clincher for me in both cases is the are found with the skirt hiked up to expose the private parts and abdomen, like the rest, showing a pre occupation with that area.

While the ripper probably attacked other women, mill wood being an early botched attempt, he more than likely IMHO, killed seven.

[GUT]

He probably would have walked. Police didn,t have any evidence against him. He could have had alibis, denied the letters and the knife and graffito. The top doctors called to testify had contrary beliefs on his method of mutilation. Other than the case of Elizabeth Stride, no constable reported seeing a man with the woman murdered. And, the prosecutions top witnesses - Packer, Hutchinson, Schwartz, Lawende, Mrs.Maxwell, Mrs. Long - would disagree on his identity (similar to the witnesses charging Dr. Hessell in the Coram Street mystery).

Surely Mrs Maxwell would be a defence witness not a prosecution witness.