Does the Goulston Street Graffito eliminate Jewish Immigrants as suspects?

[Abby Normal]

Would imagine that this topic has been exhausted but I thought I would ask the question again. Perhaps new thoughts on the topic.

If JtR in fact wrote the Graffito on Goulston Street, how could he have written it without the knowledge and training of how to write it?

The Free Schools for both Jew and Gentile were the training grounds. At the time it appears that Latin Grammar was institutionalized and the learning of double negatives was part of the training or teaching.

In the case of the graffito or sentence, it would be common for the double negatives (not, nothing) to cancel each other out! Leaving- The Jews are the men that will be blamed .

Would a Jewish immigrant who came to London between 1875 to 1888 ( if JtR was 30 years of age and Free School ends at age 14), actually know how to write a double negative?
Speaking Yiddish and possibly able to write in Hebrew only?

The Lipski Trial illustrated the need for translators. Israel Scwartz needed a translator. Israel Lipski could speak some English after being around for a couple of years.

Logically, if JtR were approximately 30 to 40 years of age and was educated enough to write a double negative sentence, what does that mean?

In the 1871 Census would the description " scholar" possibly point to a man of right approximate age for the killer?

This would seem to be a Lead but I'm not sure how much investigation has already be done?

If JtR was the writer, and I believe he was, it is doubtful the Jewish Immigrants could have written it.

The Jews are the men to be blamed!

This statement could be an accusation ?- they did it .
Or
It could mean ownership, a boast ?- yea I did it, catch me if you can...

Thoughts??

imho yes pretty much and probably written by a local gentile. the translation from an expert in victorian language means ...the jews wont take the blame for anything.

remember the night of the double event schwartz was described as looking heavily jewish and was shouted at lipski! which was a jewish slur at the time. i think the ripper was pissed off by being interupted and or going with the idea of a jewish killer(leather apron/ pizer was the leading candidate at the time)

it all kind of ties together, for me anyway.

[Patrick Differ]

Seriously. Ok

[c.d.]

Sorry, don't want to be the grammar police but it is imbecile not embicil.

c.d.

[Patrick Differ]

C.d...you are of course correct. Just a theory and it could have been just some lunatic who hated prostitutes ripping out their guts. The Doctors were perplexed by the mutilations but the mutilations were likely not a random act and based on profession. Someone who knew their way with knives who were not afraid to cut and minimize the blood splatter on themselves. Not something you might equate with an embicil?

[c.d.]

I think poor ole' Mr. Occam just rolled over in his grave. Not trying to be overly critical but you have a lot going on there.

c.d.

[Patrick Differ]

Team- I have a theory on this night of clues based on all the feedback and some research Fishman conducted as well as Charles Booth's demographic of Whitechapel- Spitalfields.

This killer knew these streets and the behavior and beats of the Police. If he lived there his entire 30 years he would know the behavior of his fellow citizens. If he was somewhat educated he could write a double negative sentence with meaning. If he was local for that duration he more than likely was tempted by Prostitutes.

In the case of this killer and the question of where did he live?, I believe that he most likely lived, over his 30 years in this area, likely more than one place. That would explain Bucks Row and Berner Street murders ( he lived in that area) , and Eddowes, Kelly and Chapman ( he also lived in that area).

If the killer lived between Mitre Square and Goulston Street then that would explain the disappearance whether the apron and graffito were there at 2:20 am or later. But the graffito was considered fresh and Warren decided to erase it. He was in fact right because that morning the Citizenry was all over the area with the markets and news of 2 murders.

The graffito was not from an unschooled person since they would have been trained in Latin Grammar and the use of double negatives.
The Jewes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing
( the double negatives cancel each other out)
The Jewes are the men who will be blamed!

This sounds like a statement to me. As a matter of fact that the Jewes will be blamed for these murders. In this context I believe this was an F You statement towards the Authorities.
Somewhere in this killers past there was a bad experience with the Law. ( We are going to be blamed..because we are Jews)

This graffito sentiment is echoed by Law Enforcement in London. " No Englishman could perform these atrocities ".
No better place to write the message then in the heart of the Sunday Market.

The Anglo Jewery in London were being challenged by the Immigrant wave that included the rise of Radical Socialists, the Berner Streeters. They had to stop it. The Imperial Club was the brainchild of Lady Rothschild and funded by the Rothschilds to recruit the " Masters" in order to combat the Radicals. The Anglo Jewish gains of the last 50 years, including finally getting into Parliament, were suddenly on the line.

In my mind there is only one witness that could identify with certainty, this killer. That would be Joseph Hyam Levy and that would be because he knew him. He did not come forward but was found right after the Eddowes murder. His reluctance and inference he knew something was reported in the Press.

JH Levy has been tied to Martin Kosminski and Daniel Kosminski (Scott) to the Imperial Club. Not a Socialist Club since JH Levy was a Master and Anglo Jew. He was an Englishman. So could it be that the Kosminski's chose an English and not a Radical Socialist path? I believe so.

If Aaron Kosminski was related to Martin or Daniel then JH Levy would have likely known him.
So here would be JH Levy as the only witness who could have known 2 suspects, both lunatics, his cousin Jacob Levy and Kosminski. The latter to be conclusively proven.

Jacob Levy lived 4 years on Fieldgate Street which is halfway between Bucks Row and Berner Street. He moved to Middlesex Street which is one block west of Goulston and several blocks east of Mitre Square. Goulston Street was the location of Hyam Sampson who convicted Levy for theft sending him to prison and then an Asylum in 1886 to 1887.

Listed as a scholar in the Jewish Free School and 1871 Census , he would have been trained in the Latin grammar double negative. As a butcher he would know knives, how to gut, and use chalk.

ITS EASY to say NO in this case. It's much more difficult to say Yes. That's why the " What If" scenarios are important.

What if the Anglo Jewery community learned from JH Levy that " one of their own" was this killer? An Englishman or wanna be Englishman? And imagine if the Jewish Radicals had discovered it? Charles Warren had seen it a year earlier in Trafalgar Square. It would have ignited Whitechapel.

Questions arise. Did the Anglo Jewish community run disinformation against the Police. There was no way that Law Enforcement would ever get the names right. It would explain Kosminski, Kaminski, Cohen, etc.
Once the Police made the decision that the killer was a Polish Immigrant Jew, the Anglo Jews were off the hook. Unless the killer got caught.

How did the Police know to put tabs on a Jewish Butcher? Which fits Jacob Levy, the only convicted Lunatic Butcher in the area. Watched from his home and shop on Middlesex to Butchers Row. With JH Levys brother Henry living directly accross from Butchers Row on Aldgate?

How Kosminski would fit into this scenario only makes sense if Kosminski was not the killer but was perceived to be because the Police were fed that...high probability. They couldn't prove it but blame the embicil and let the Police chase their tails.

After the killer was interrupted on Berner Street his controlled anger was elevated and he took it out on Eddowes to the point of mutilation on the face. He leaves clues for the Police as an F You statement loud and clear. Just 45 minutes earlier he shouts Lipski as one block east Israel Lipski is convicted of murder, but according to the other inhabitants of 16 Batty Street, including Mrs Levy, Israel is innocent and Rosenbloom and Schmuss are the real killers. The incompetent Barrister who defends Lipski defended Levy.

Like all theories this is a work in progress. If either Jacob Levy or Aaron Kosminski were JtR it would have severe consequences for the Anglo Jewish community and even the Rothschilds. The Monarchy would have suffered at the hands of the Jewish Radicals.

In a Class Society who was expendable for the greater good? The Prostitutes and Jewish Immigrants.

[Herlock Sholmes]

While I don't think Jack wrote the GSG, I will attempt to play devil's advocate and try to answer my own question. It could be that in his mind the GSG was the ultimate clue and the very last word needed. So no need for a further message.

c.d.

There’s always the chance that he hadn’t actually intended to write the message. Perhaps he had stopped in the doorway for a reason…let’s say something like to wipe his face and hands with the cloth which he discarded. And something made him think of writing a message. Here’s a suggestion that I don’t think that I’ve heard before c.d. - what if he looked down to the floor and noticed a piece of chalk (accidentally dropped by someone) and it gave him the idea of writing a message which he composed on the spot?

Or what if he reached in his pocket to pull out the apron and he pulled out a piece of chalk that was in there (or that he just felt it in his pocket?)

Maybe on the spot all he could think of was some comment intended as a dig at the Jews? Something a bit mysterious to leave the police scratching their heads.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If we also take the theory that the killer injured himself cutting through Eddowes, which seems a common take, why would an injured party with a piece of the dead woman's clothing and a fresh kidney stop to write a completely meaningless message? It seems very high risk, especially after not one but two murders attributed to you. Even if the message made sense it would still be truly questionable. The only reason I can think for stopping to write such an absurd, meaningless message would be a psychotic disorder, but I doubt someone with a psychotic disorder to the point of world salad would go unnoticed, either, let alone be able to talk to vulnerable women in confidence.

Added to the fact that PC Long claimed that the apron wasn’t there when he passed the doorway at 2.20 but it was there 35 minutes later. If Long was correct then did that mean that he went home (or to some bolthole) and then went back out to write the message and leave the apron, or just to leave the apron by an already existent message. This would seem unlikely due to the police presence that the killer would have been expecting. It’s possible that Long just didn't notice it when he passed at 2.20 though. This seems like the likeliest explanation to me.

[c.d.]

While I don't think Jack wrote the GSG, I will attempt to play devil's advocate and try to answer my own question. It could be that in his mind the GSG was the ultimate clue and the very last word needed. So no need for a further message.

c.d.

[c.d.]

For those who believe that Jack wrote the GSG, do you find it strange that he didn't write another message at Miller's Court (assuming that he killed Kelly as well)?

c.d.

[Lewis C]

My answer to the thread question is no, for 3 reasons. One is that we don't know for sure that the Ripper wrote it. Secondly, the meaning of it can be taken more than one way - it might not be anti-Semitic. Thirdly, even if its intended meaning is anti-Semitic, sometimes people do talk negatively about groups of people that they're a part of.

[Tani]

Hi c.d./Patrick,

Like the Stride murder (was she, wasn’t she?) I’ve been on the fence on this one for years. Perhaps I’m being guilty here of not practicing what I preach because I’ve always said that we shouldn’t assume to know how a serial killer might have been thinking at any given time…but…wouldn’t the killer have left a more obvious message? A suggestion is that he left the cloth as a kind of ‘signature’ to the message (and I think that’s a reasonable suggestion) but a better way of letting people know that he message was written by the killer would be to say so in the message itself. The message does seem a little cryptic if it was written by the killer.

c.d. makes the good point that the killer might have been an educated man who wanted to appear poorly educated. So that would give us a well educated man carrying a piece of chalk. Only joking. It doesn’t have to mean a university education of course.

It’s intriguing but unless we start going down the anagram/wordplay route I can’t really see what we can deduce from it. I’d love to know but I don’t think that we ever will.

If we also take the theory that the killer injured himself cutting through Eddowes, which seems a common take, why would an injured party with a piece of the dead woman's clothing and a fresh kidney stop to write a completely meaningless message? It seems very high risk, especially after not one but two murders attributed to you. Even if the message made sense it would still be truly questionable. The only reason I can think for stopping to write such an absurd, meaningless message would be a psychotic disorder, but I doubt someone with a psychotic disorder to the point of world salad would go unnoticed, either, let alone be able to talk to vulnerable women in confidence.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi c.d./Patrick,

Like the Stride murder (was she, wasn’t she?) I’ve been on the fence on this one for years. Perhaps I’m being guilty here of not practicing what I preach because I’ve always said that we shouldn’t assume to know how a serial killer might have been thinking at any given time…but…wouldn’t the killer have left a more obvious message? A suggestion is that he left the cloth as a kind of ‘signature’ to the message (and I think that’s a reasonable suggestion) but a better way of letting people know that he message was written by the killer would be to say so in the message itself. The message does seem a little cryptic if it was written by the killer.

c.d. makes the good point that the killer might have been an educated man who wanted to appear poorly educated. So that would give us a well educated man carrying a piece of chalk. Only joking. It doesn’t have to mean a university education of course.

It’s intriguing but unless we start going down the anagram/wordplay route I can’t really see what we can deduce from it. I’d love to know but I don’t think that we ever will.

[c.d.]

It's just not clear c.d. that this could be written by an un educated person.

Except that being "educated" runs a very wide gamut.

One of the main points against JTR as the writer (and there are several for me) is that I would expect a message at Miller's Court as well and we don't see one and F.M. be damned.

c.d.

---

[Patrick Differ]

Thanks c.d...agree on JFK. As an American it never goes away.

Understand your points. This thought came to me yesterday with regard to education and immigrants. My Polish grandparents could never get into English eventhough they lived in the USA for over 50 years. The community I grew up in was Polish and Ukrainian. Their own little World.

Tantalizing is a good word to describe it. It might point to motive. It could point to deception. The writing could have been there and the killer just drops the apron. That seems less probable to me but I guess it could happen. Definitively leads to What If scenario's.

Still, the Latin Grammar connection is interesting. I was surprised to see that the Jewish Free School actually leaned more to non Religious curriculum as their thought was being more anglicized would help their position within the class society. Being Englishman.

By 1888 the Anglo v Immigrant was in a battle mode in the Jewish Community. The Rothschilds had a big hand in funding the messaging against the Berner Street Radicals who threatened the Status Quo the Anglicized Jews fought for. Jewish Chronical v Arbeiter Friend.

I was trying to understand who may have written this sentence. Less perhaps of what it says. The cutoff point for Scholar at the age of 14 appears to potentially be reflected in the year between 1869 to 1972. I don't think Immigrants arriving in 1872 or 1873 for example, at age 15, would have v been trained to write a sentence with a double negative.

It's just not clear c.d. that this could be written by an un educated person.