piece of apron

[El White Chap]

I cannot see a murderer standing under a lamp, for all the world to see & identify, while wiping blood stains of himself.
There is something counter-intuitive about that.

Isn't it far more likely he took the darkest route staying away from lighted area's, especially lampposts.

No one suggested standing under a lamp post while wiping blood off oneself. That would be 'suicide'. Simply that any light, bright or dull, from Mitre Square would have illuminated the ripper for however many milliseconds, in doing so assisting in pin pointing any unseen mess remaining on clothes etc. Once identified, those 'spots' can then be wiped off in the darkness. It cannot be ruled out just as it cannot be determined, simply, it's all open to possibility.

[curious4]

Escape route

Indeed it should, and I cannot see a murderer standing under a lamp, for all the world to see & identify, while wiping blood stains of himself.
There is something counter-intuitive about that.

Isn't it far more likely he took the darkest route staying away from lighted area's, especially lampposts.

Hello Jon,

If he did know the area well, don't you think he could have avoided the streets by cutting through gardens and even houses (similar to the Hanbury street one, where he could cut straight through the house). Or even rooftops. Wasn't there something about an attic room, locked on the inside?

Best wishes,

C4/Gwyneth

[curious4]

Innards

Trevor, you are beginning to alarm me! Just where are you getting these pictures from? I thought bits taken out during operations were put into metal dish things, not onto cloth. Very informative though!

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Apron size

Apron. About half of the apron. Maybe between 3-5 square feet.
http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-graffito.html. Hope I did the link thing correcly. First attempt. Geronimo!

Hallo Dig,

I think the apron size in the dissertation is somewhat exaggerated. Kate was tiny, with at the most an eighteen inch waist (had one of those in my youth, sigh) and perhaps five feet tall. I was about this size and often made my own clothes and could have made a similar apron from a yard, or perhaps just over a yard of material, depending on width. Not all aprons had bibs. Therefore (I think) the piece of apron would have been much smaller.

All good wishes,
Gwyneth/C4

[El White Chap]

tests based on those descriptions and tests which included wiping blood stained hands on a cloth and wiping a bloody knife on a cloth both showing the results of such test none of which match the description of the GS piece.

On a footnote blood on a persons hands when exposed to the atmosphere will dry on its own in a matter of minutes. The actual time will depend on the temperature of the persons body and the external elements.

Tests based on descriptions, I'd be a bit weary about those. Experiments based on inexactitudes can and are most likely to be awfully flawed.

Blood will dry with relative quickness, possibly in a matter of minutes. But other such bodily fluids? Faecal etc are a whole different ball game. Might I add these were also said to be found on said apron piece.

[Trevor Marriott]

Which "further tests" show that the killer didn't wipe their hands or knife on the apron? All we have is a vague description of the piece of apron and how it appeared.

tests based on those descriptions and tests which included wiping blood stained hands on a cloth and wiping a bloody knife on a cloth both showing the results of such test none of which match the description of the GS piece.

On a footnote blood on a persons hands when exposed to the atmosphere will dry on its own in a matter of minutes. The actual time will depend on the temperature of the persons body and the external elements.

[El White Chap]

Further tests carried out in my opinion tend to show that the killer did not wipe his hands or his knife on the apron piece.

Which "further tests" show that the killer didn't wipe their hands or knife on the apron? All we have is a vague description of the piece of apron and how it appeared.

[El White Chap]

But, even so, he is walking all that way with the cloth? Don't think so.

Looks more like someone trying to "plant" evidence. What do you think?

Cheers.
LC

Piece of Eddowes apron ends up a few streets down/couple minutes walk from the scene of her murder, but can't have been put there buy the ripper? C'mon, let's not rule it out, especially as there is nothing to prove otherwise.

Hypothesising that piece of apron was planted there by the another hand to create an impact next to the GSG is only opening 'more cans of worms'. Maybe it was Rebecca Brooks and The News Of The World?

[Trevor Marriott]

On the contrary, the stained cloth you posted is precisely what we should expect to see.



The only blood associated with a kidney is what surrounds it when you remove it, and due to the fatty membrane blood does not stay on the kidney.

Test what happens to blood when you drip it on to fat Trevor.

As promised I have posted a pic of a kidney which was removed from a deceased person and like the uterus wrapped in a piece of cloth, left for a time unraveled and then photographed.

Now the difference with this kidney and one purportedly taken from Eddowes is that this kidney does not contain nor are there any traces of oxygenated blood.

A kidney removed at the crime scene and thus wrapped would be blood red.

Now take a look at the results as shown in the photo even despite the lack of oxygenated blood the cloth is heavily blood stained.

Now if you add the effects of the kidney and the uterus as shown in the previous pic you can clearly see what is described as a heavily blood stained piece of cloth.

Go back and read the various descriptions of the apron piece no where does it say "heavily bloodstained" in one it does mention stained but if it had been heavily bloodstained as you suggest it would have been mentioned as such.

So I say again this shows that the killer did not take away the organs in the apron piece.

Further tests carried out in my opinion tend to show that the killer did not wipe his hands or his knife on the apron piece.

[El White Chap]

Lamp posts are everywhere in London, then and now. Eventually the killer would have to pass one on their route. Law of averages. There is also light from many other sources which causing illumination onto the street. You can move all you want to in the shadows, regardless, the light will still 'kiss' you at some points.

Saying the ripper wasn't messy enough to need wiping down would also be an assumption, Mitre Square would have been in poor light whilst he was doing his work, work that created a lot fluid. Simply look at what was left at the scene, it's abundantly clear that the hands up to the sleeves would have been drenched at the very minimum. Add to that the potentially unexpected spurts from her neck and abdomen. Even more likely when one cannot see so clearly. I've been to the square enough times to know, even now in the early hours of the morning you can see how poorly lit it was during the victorian era.

Carrying a piece of apron concealed on ones person from Mitre Square north a few streets is hardly a leap of magic.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo El White Chap.

Apron. About half of the apron. Maybe between 3-5 square feet.
http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-graffito.html. Hope I did the link thing correcly. First attempt. Geronimo!

[Wickerman]

And the cruncher. How could he cut a piece of her apron off when she wasn't wearing one

And here's me thinking you were trying to be serious...

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Lesson learned.

One pic is worth a thousand words and no matter how many pics are put before those who want to beleive the killer carried the organs way in they will not accept otherwise.
I set out to prove or disprove this theory in an unbiased way
That excercise I say again clearly shows the killer did not take away the organs in
Further tests also show he didn't wipe his hands on it or his knife.

So there has to be alternative explanation for the apron piece turning up on gs

Hullo Trevor. Nice discussing things with you. I had looked forward to it. Perhaps you mistook my meaning. Never question the inphallibility of Mr. Marriot. Apologies. Perhaps next time we will make a better go of it. I sincerely hope so.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Why could it not be a disaffected Gentile?

Cheers.
LC

Oh it could be. It's just simpler that way. The Juwes are responsible. In whatever way it is meant to be. Not saying I believe it o be the case, but it is pretty straightforward. I mean it could be.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Wickerman.

Quite, whether he was messy enough to need wiping down is also an assumption, apart from his hands being bloody, I would say not.
I was told Chapman's scarf was missing, I never did look into that point. So, possibly that was also what he used to wrap her uterus in?

Thanks Wickerman. And if his hands be gloved then remove and they are clean! Don't remember anything about Chapman's scarf being missing. That would be mighty interesting indeed.