Was The City Responsible For The Gsg & Apron

[moonbegger]

I'm not sure there's anything that points to Robinson or Simmons seeing the body in situ at Mitre Square. Much more likely they were some of the "large number of persons" who viewed the body at the mortuary before Eddowes was identified. The Echo quote is from 2nd Oct, 2 and a half days after the murder.

Yes Josua , I believe it was the ID at the mortuary the press referred to ..
And this is the testimony that for me points to it being the same two officers that pulled her in earlier from the High st , and also gives us an indication that it was shorty after her murder ..
"The policemen, having seen the mutilated body at the mortuary in Golden-lane, expressed the opinion that it was that of a woman who had been taken to the station by them a short time ago when under the influence of drink."

Two things stand out .... "by them" meaning them that took her in (i.e.) Robinson & Simmons , and "a short time ago" .. Not "yesterday" or "couple of days ago" but a "short time" (a matter of hours)

A further point being , If the City felt the need for Robinson & Simmons to confirm it was the same woman .. Then there must have been other Bishopsgate officers in Mitre Sq that also voiced their concern about the dead woman's identity .. Otherwise why request Robinson & Simmons to confirm their suspicions .

moon

[Joshua Rogan]

Hello Joshua ,

"it's tempting to think that, after arresting Kate, he returned to his beat and somewhere around Aldgate might have bumped into DC Halse and related the story of her arrest. But it's difficult to believe he described her in such detail that Halse immediately recognised the horribly disfigured body in Mitre Square as the "nothing" who had been locked up. And even harder to believe he somehow knew she had just been released"

I was actually connecting the dots of assumption, alluding to the slight possibility that Eddows had indeed been identified as the woman recently held and released from Bishopsgate Police station in the immediate hour after her murder ..Maybe even it was PC george simmons & PC Robinson who identified Eddows "to their superior officers" as the same woman they brought into Bishopsgate a "short" time ago "it was that of a woman who had been taken to the station by them a short time ago when under the influence of drink." And its most likely her "nothing" story was also included in the conversation .

(Echo) "A reporter, writing at two o'clock, said: - It appears that two City police-constables, who have seen the body, believe that it is that of a woman whom they had in custody a short time ago on a charge of drunkenness"
(Daily News) "Some information furnished by two City police constables to their superior officers yesterday morning supplied what is at present the only clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre-square".

Moon .

I'm not sure there's anything that points to Robinson or Simmons seeing the body in situ at Mitre Square. Much more likely they were some of the "large number of persons" who viewed the body at the mortuary before Eddowes was identified. The Echo quote is from 2nd Oct, 2 and a half days after the murder.

[DJA]

Ditto.

[jerryd]

Here is an idea Jerry & DJA .. Why not take your "back yard" topic to a relevant thread ..or indeed start your own one .. Cheers

Was heading that way. Sorry to intrude.

[moonbegger]

Here is an pretty radical idea Jerry & DJA .. Why not take your "back yard" topic to a relevant thread ..or indeed start your own one .. Cheers

[DJA]

There were a number of mistakes on that thread.

[jerryd]

You've been reading Daily Telegraph,October 1,1888,page 5

The 1887 lumber shed is nowhere to be seen in the 1888 police sketch.

Sort of. That was posted in an old thread about the gate on this site. However, the press report for that day in Casebook's library doesn't have that quote in the Daily Telegraph on Oct 1, 1888 page 5. I'm wondering if it was a misprint on the name of the paper or the date?

[DJA]

You've been reading Daily Telegraph,October 1,1888,page 5

The 1887 lumber shed is nowhere to be seen in the 1888 police sketch.

[jerryd]

What's the use of a fenced backyard without a key

I don't know, ask Franklin Sydney King.

[DJA]

6 and 7 both had back doors,as did 5.

The police sketch shows the tops.

What's the use of a fenced backyard without a key

[jerryd]

There is roughly a 30 minute period that Kate goes missing.

If Jack had an away from home lair for times away from the wife and daughter,it could have been,say 6 Mitre Street.
Busy day. Lessons to go on the blackboards,maybe a Boards of Works AGM,some blackmailers,etc.
If Kate had received money earlier and celebrated whilst waiting for Liz and BSM,it would make sense for her to return after being released.
She does not know Liz is dead and prolly explains her time in jail to Jack,including "nothing".
Jack strangles her,takes her out the back and through the fence gate into Mitre Square.

Goulston Street was a red herring to deflect attention away from Mitre Square.

I do believe certain cops knew what was going on.
Major Henry Smith was on the ball. Seemed important to him for some reason.

Dave,

I believe the back of #6 Mitre Street only had a window. There was a door leading into the back of #5, though. Also, the gate was locked at the time of the murder. The yard was used as a lumber room.

[DJA]

Not sure you're going to get solid facts to "put it to bed" one way or the other.

There is roughly a 30 minute period that Kate goes missing.

If Jack had an away from home lair for times away from the wife and daughter,it could have been,say 6 Mitre Street.
Busy day. Lessons to go on the blackboards,maybe a Boards of Works AGM,some blackmailers,etc.
If Kate had received money earlier and celebrated whilst waiting for Liz and BSM,it would make sense for her to return after being released.
She does not know Liz is dead and prolly explains her time in jail to Jack,including "nothing".
Jack strangles her,takes her out the back and through the fence gate into Mitre Square.

Goulston Street was a red herring to deflect attention away from Mitre Square.

I do believe certain cops knew what was going on.
Major Henry Smith was on the ball. Seemed important to him for some reason.

[moonbegger]

Hello Joshua ,

"it's tempting to think that, after arresting Kate, he returned to his beat and somewhere around Aldgate might have bumped into DC Halse and related the story of her arrest. But it's difficult to believe he described her in such detail that Halse immediately recognised the horribly disfigured body in Mitre Square as the "nothing" who had been locked up. And even harder to believe he somehow knew she had just been released"

I was actually connecting the dots of assumption, alluding to the slight possibility that Eddows had indeed been identified as the woman recently held and released from Bishopsgate Police station in the immediate hour after her murder ..Maybe even it was PC george simmons & PC Robinson who identified Eddows "to their superior officers" as the same woman they brought into Bishopsgate a "short" time ago "it was that of a woman who had been taken to the station by them a short time ago when under the influence of drink." And its most likely her "nothing" story was also included in the conversation .

(Echo) "A reporter, writing at two o'clock, said: - It appears that two City police-constables, who have seen the body, believe that it is that of a woman whom they had in custody a short time ago on a charge of drunkenness"
(Daily News) "Some information furnished by two City police constables to their superior officers yesterday morning supplied what is at present the only clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre-square".

Moon .

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Moonbeggar,
At first glance it seems a plausible theory, but the timeline is a bit too tight for me. I'm not aware that any rumours of the City force being to blame for Eddowes' death were ever in circulation, let alone within an hour and a half of the murder.
By the time Eddowes was released, she had identified herself as Mary Ann Kelly, so was no longer simply the "nothing" she initially named herself to PC Robinson. However, it's tempting to think that, after arresting Kate, he returned to his beat and somewhere around Aldgate might have bumped into DC Halse and related the story of her arrest. But it's difficult to believe he described her in such detail that Halse immediately recognised the horribly disfigured body in Mitre Square as the "nothing" who had been locked up. And even harder to believe he somehow knew she had just been released, and immediately decided to tamper with evidence. And just what did he hope to achieve? After all, Kate had just been released by the City force (not "kicked out" of Old Jewry St Detective Office, but released as sober from Bishopsgate police station, according to them), and brutally murdered on City ground. Moving a bit of apron and writing a message didn't change those facts, so wouldn't have prevented any accusing fingers being pointed their way, had any been poised to do so.


What puzzles me most is why Halse, a detective constable, apparently took charge and gave orders when Outram - a detective sergeant who arrived at the same time - outranked him.

[GUT]

Not sure you're going to get solid facts to "put it to bed" one way or the other.