Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Two authentic comms from the Ripper?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    Hi Stephen/ all
    The three clues that that try to implicate Jews:
    Lipski
    GsG
    Aman

    IMHO point the ripper himself. The clues are there, we just need to recognize them.
    Hello Abby,

    Re: Astrakhan man - are you suggesting that the killer disguised himself as a Jew? I donít understand.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Harry D View Post
      Hello Abby,

      Re: Astrakhan man - are you suggesting that the killer disguised himself as a Jew? I donít understand.
      Hi harry
      No. That the person who tried to accuse a Jew was a gentile and his name was Hutchinson.

      It goes like this. While trying to murder stride heís seen by a (heavy appearance) jew, prompting him to shout lipski at him. Pissed off by this he later writes the gsg to throw blame on them. He continues the theme with describing aman as a Jew.
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
        Hi harry
        No. That the person who tried to accuse a Jew was a gentile and his name was Hutchinson.

        It goes like this. While trying to murder stride heís seen by a (heavy appearance) jew, prompting him to shout lipski at him. Pissed off by this he later writes the gsg to throw blame on them. He continues the theme with describing aman as a Jew.
        Hello Abby,

        Very intriguing. I forgot that Hutch is one of your favourites.

        Several of the murders happened in Jewish neighbourhoods, at a time when antisemitism was rife. It's just as likely that the Jewish theme is circumstantial rather than inherent to the murders.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
          Hi harry
          No. That the person who tried to accuse a Jew was a gentile and his name was Hutchinson.

          It goes like this. While trying to murder stride he’s seen by a (heavy appearance) jew, prompting him to shout lipski at him. Pissed off by this he later writes the gsg to throw blame on them. He continues the theme with describing aman as a Jew.
          Hi Abby,

          What is there to indicate that Israel Schwartz (assuming that's who you mean) was of 'heavy appearance'? Theatrical I'm familiar with, but heavy? Talking of theatrical (which we weren't but we are now) isn't Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan man essentially that of a 'theatrical Jew'?
          Last edited by Bridewell; 04-23-2018, 01:49 PM.
          "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Harry D View Post
            Hello Abby,

            Very intriguing. I forgot that Hutch is one of your favourites.

            Several of the murders happened in Jewish neighbourhoods, at a time when antisemitism was rife. It's just as likely that the Jewish theme is circumstantial rather than inherent to the murders.
            hi Harry
            I don't go as far as Stephen with the jewish theme. I don't think the ripper always started off with the jewish angle(but he might have) and intentionally murdered near jewish sites, I don't think it was his major motivation etc. I think that was more than likely just chance. agree with you there.

            but the night of the double event pissed him off with the interuptions by jews so he ran with the blaming them theme. carried over to the Kelly murder when he came forward because he was worried he had been spotted and continued with the jewish suspect theme.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
              Hi Abby,

              What is there to indicate that Israel Schwartz (assuming that's who you mean) was of 'heavy appearance'? Theatrical I'm familiar with, but heavy? Talking of theatrical (which we weren't but we are now) isn't Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan man essentially that of a 'theatrical Jew'?
              hi Bridewell
              abberline said Schwartz was of "heavy jewish appearance".

              I don't know much about the theatrical angle on Schwartz, but if that was in the papers I wouldn't doubt hutch might have incorporated that in his fake description of Aman.
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                hi Bridewell
                abberline said Schwartz was of "heavy jewish appearance".

                I don't know much about the theatrical angle on Schwartz, but if that was in the papers I wouldn't doubt hutch might have incorporated that in his fake description of Aman.
                In his report dated 1st November 1888 Abberline says "Schwartz has a strong Jewish appearance" (my italics). Whilst that could be taken as a reference to physical strength, the context is surely far more suggestive of meaning that he was very Jewish in appearance. Schwartz may have been heavy but then again he may not.
                Last edited by Bridewell; 04-23-2018, 02:36 PM.
                "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                  In his report dated 1st November 1888 Abberline says "Schwartz has a strong Jewish appearance" (my italics). Whilst that could be taken as a reference to physical strength, the context is surely far more suggestive of meaning that he was very Jewish in appearance. Schwartz may have been heavy but then again he may not.
                  Ok my bad. Strong Jewish appearance. And your right and thatís what I meant he was very Jewish looking.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    The individuals who interrupted the killer on the night of the double event may have been Jewish but their being Jewish played no part at all in what took place. In other words, they weren't in the place they interacted with the killer because it was somehow related to being Jewish, i.e., part of a ceremony or ritual. I suppose it could have been the straw that broke the camels back if he harbored a long standing resentment against them but it seems that in and of itself it was inconsequential that they happened to be Jews.

                    But even if we grant that an interruption by Jews that evening triggered some sort of anti-semitic rage the GSG does not reflect that. Now it is possible that the author of the GSG considered what he wrote to be the most insulting and damning indictment of Jews the world had ever seen up to that point but to us it seems to be indicating some mild resentment against them and certainly not what we would expect from someone in a rage against the Jews.

                    c.d.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      "Several of the murders happened in Jewish neighbourhoods, at a time when antisemitism was rife. It's just as likely that the Jewish theme is circumstantial rather than inherent to the murders."

                      Calling Mr. Occam. Calling Mr. Occam. Good one, Harry. As usual. If someone is intent on finding a connection they most likely will whatever it may be.

                      c.d.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                        "Several of the murders happened in Jewish neighbourhoods, at a time when antisemitism was rife. It's just as likely that the Jewish theme is circumstantial rather than inherent to the murders." c.d.
                        As you state, several Ripper murders were committed in Jewish neighbourhoods and antisemitism was rife. It was not Jewish women who were targeted however, and so it is a stretch for me to conclude that antisemitism was the motivator for the murders. Of course, this does not preclude the possibility that the murderer was nevertheless antisemitic.

                        As for the GSG, this may be explained as general graffiti and the fact that it referenced Jews was not surprising given the neighbourhood and so it may simply be a coincidence that the night the murderer was disturbed by a Jewish man that message became part of the case. We do not have the luxury of knowing precisely what it said, but the police at the time obviously saw a potential link and the possibility that it could be interpreted as murder related. The presence of the piece of apron at that spot where the graffiti was written could be mere coincidence. The reference to blame in the message needn't be a reference to the murders that took place that night, that too may have been mere coincidence. The fact that the only other piece of authenticated messaging (though not proven a hoax or authentic) relating to the Ripper murders was also connected with the murder of Catherine Eddowes may also be mere coincidence. When so many coincidences converge, a simpler explanation might be sought, such as the murderer spooked by being disturbed wrote the GSG and sent the Lusk letter. To avoid a repeat, his next victim was murdered inside a house.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by etenguy View Post
                          As you state, several Ripper murders were committed in Jewish neighbourhoods and antisemitism was rife. It was not Jewish women who were targeted however, and so it is a stretch for me to conclude that antisemitism was the motivator for the murders. Of course, this does not preclude the possibility that the murderer was nevertheless antisemitic.

                          As for the GSG, this may be explained as general graffiti and the fact that it referenced Jews was not surprising given the neighbourhood and so it may simply be a coincidence that the night the murderer was disturbed by a Jewish man that message became part of the case. We do not have the luxury of knowing precisely what it said, but the police at the time obviously saw a potential link and the possibility that it could be interpreted as murder related. The presence of the piece of apron at that spot where the graffiti was written could be mere coincidence. The reference to blame in the message needn't be a reference to the murders that took place that night, that too may have been mere coincidence. The fact that the only other piece of authenticated messaging (though not proven a hoax or authentic) relating to the Ripper murders was also connected with the murder of Catherine Eddowes may also be mere coincidence. When so many coincidences converge, a simpler explanation might be sought, such as the murderer spooked by being disturbed wrote the GSG and sent the Lusk letter. To avoid a repeat, his next victim was murdered inside a house.
                          Hi eten
                          Good post. It got me wondering if the ripper might have thought that any of the Jews that may have disturbed him, particularly Lawende and company , might have been part of a vigilance committee and or associated with Lusk? Hence from hell letter.


                          RE Kelly and indoors... IMHO more than likely a lucky accident for the ripper.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Could the fact that several of the murders where committed in Jewish neighbourhoods simply because the killer was familiar with the surroundings, and felt safer there. IE He was Jewish

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
                              Could the fact that several of the murders where committed in Jewish neighbourhoods simply because the killer was familiar with the surroundings, and felt safer there. IE He was Jewish
                              Hi Darryl. It wasn't an exclusively Jewish area, so probably insufficient on its own to conclude he was Jewish. But I think you are right that he lived in the area or knew the area well.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                                Hi eten
                                Good post. It got me wondering if the ripper might have thought that any of the Jews that may have disturbed him, particularly Lawende and company , might have been part of a vigilance committee and or associated with Lusk? Hence from hell letter.


                                RE Kelly and indoors... IMHO more than likely a lucky accident for the ripper.
                                Hi Abby. Thanks. I think you and I have similar views with regard the GSG and Lusk letter.

                                My thinking is similar to yours regarding the reason for sending a letter to Lusk. But that is pure speculation with nothing to support it, other than it provides a plausible possibility.

                                I differ with you with regard to the Kelly murder. Again, pure speculation, but I think he actively sought a safer environment. But it could have simply been an accident of opportunity.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X