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Was the Ripper German?

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  • HelenaWojtczak
    replied
    Originally posted by Chriswald View Post
    Hello Helena,

    I believe the description is the one of the witness who saw the strange man asking for the address of Lusk.
    Yes indeed, Chris. My point is that Milne is telling his audiences that the description (which he omits to give) fits Chapman, which it plainly does not.

    Regards

    Helena

    Leave a comment:


  • Chriswald
    replied
    Hello Helena,

    I believe the description is the one of the witness who saw the strange man asking for the address of Lusk.

    Leave a comment:


  • HelenaWojtczak
    replied
    Originally posted by Chriswald View Post
    You probably mean the statement of Emily Marsh:

    Both Emily and her father, as well as John Cormack, gave full descriptions of the man they saw:

    - around forty-five years old
    - six-feet tall
    - slimly built
    - soft felt black hat, drawn over his forehead
    - stand-up collar, described as "Prussian or clerical" and partly turned up.
    - very long, black, single-breasted overcoat
    - face was sallow with a dark beard and moustache
    - spoke with an Irish accent

    She was speaking of a "prussian" collar (whatever that may be).
    I don't know if any of you have seen Robert Milne's current presentation on Jack the Ripper.

    Milne retired from the Metropolitan Police in 2008 after forty years’ service with the Forensic Services Directorate at Scotland Yard. In retirement he wrote a book, Forensic Intelligence, and decided to apply his experience and expertise to the problem of establishing the identity of Jack-the-Ripper. Milne kindly shared with me a slideshow and accompanying speaker’s notes that he currently presents to audiences in the UK and Europe.

    Milne’s presentation includes the incident in 1888 in which George Lusk received a piece of kidney and a letter purporting to be from Catherine Eddowes’s killer (i.e. Jack-the-Ripper). The previous day, a strange man had asked for Lusk’s address. Milne tells his audiences that the man was ‘of similar appearance to [George] Chapman’, but does not include the wording of the witnesses’ description.

    This is a most curious thing for Milne to do, when you consider the witness description as provided by Chris, above, and the fact that Chapman was then 23, 5ft 5 and recently arrived from Poland.

    Helena

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  • Phil H
    replied
    I think a Prussian collar would be "military "style, - reflecting German uniforms of the day. In my youth, Mr Nehru - then Prime Minister of India - made a jacket with a stand-up collar fashionable again.

    What I don't understand is how a "stand-up collar" if cut to be such, can be "partly turned up".

    Clergymen of the period - I can recall them as late as the 1960s - wore "clerical" dress, which included a frock coat with a stand-up collar as opposed to lapels.

    Phil

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  • Chriswald
    replied
    Emily Marsh

    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Earlier in the week that the letter and kidney section arrived at Mr Lusks, there is a story about a man wearing gloves entering a local shop and asking the shopkeeper for a copy of the days paper, with Lusk's address in it. He wrote down the details and left.

    He was said to likely be Irish by the shopkeeper.

    Best regards all
    You probably mean the statement of Emily Marsh:

    Both Emily and her father, as well as John Cormack, gave full descriptions of the man they saw:

    - around forty-five years old
    - six-feet tall
    - slimly built
    - soft felt black hat, drawn over his forehead
    - stand-up collar, described as "Prussian or clerical" and partly turned up.
    - very long, black, single-breasted overcoat
    - face was sallow with a dark beard and moustache
    - spoke with an Irish accent

    She was speaking of a "prussian" collar (whatever that may be).

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Earlier in the week that the letter and kidney section arrived at Mr Lusks, there is a story about a man wearing gloves entering a local shop and asking the shopkeeper for a copy of the days paper, with Lusk's address in it. He wrote down the details and left.

    He was said to likely be Irish by the shopkeeper.

    Best regards all

    Leave a comment:


  • Bridewell
    replied
    Originally posted by Chriswald View Post
    Hello Bridewell,

    I enjoyed reading Sudgen's book a lot. The name of the German forum ist www.jacktheripper.de
    Thanks, Chriswald. I'll have a look.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chriswald
    replied
    Originally posted by Phil H View Post
    [B]
    By the way, on a separate topic, I think you will find Sickert was of Danish descent, not German. Or was that a trick question?
    According to Wikipedia Walter Sickert's father was Danish-German. Sickert himself was born in Munich, Germany. But Sickert's mother was Irish-English and they moved to Britain, when Sickert was about eight years old. So he must have spoken English perfectly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chriswald
    replied
    Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
    Philip Sugden's book is an excellent choice. What's the name of the German forum please?
    Hello Bridewell,

    I enjoyed reading Sudgen's book a lot. The name of the German forum ist www.jacktheripper.de

    Leave a comment:


  • lynn cates
    replied
    opinion

    Hello Rob. Thanks.

    "What does that mean exactly? Can you elaborate?"

    Well, since it is another man's opinion, perhaps I'd better not try to interject my interpretation.

    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • lynn cates
    replied
    foreign sounding

    Hello Chris. Thanks.

    Or, perhaps, "foreign sounding"?

    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • Phil H
    replied
    Sickert as a young man worked for Henry Irving's company at the Lyceum. He would have learned make-up techniques, but don't forget in 1888, stage lighting was by limelight or gas, and greasepaint was used for make-up.

    The stage conditions would have meant that by today's film standards, the make-up would have been heavy and - to an observer back-stage highly unnatural in colour and artificiality. Footlights (as I well know from personal experience) required a different technique to modern spotlights and floods etc. In particular the eyes and so on need bringing out, and lines to denote age/wrinkles etc would have been painted on (not done with latex or prosthetics as now) and would have been highly obvious.

    So I do not think that Sickert would have been able to change his appearance to walk the streets as "someone else" without raising some eyebrows.

    I think he may have acquired one "fetish" at the Lyceum. Irving's head scenery painter wore a red bandana when "preparing for close action" (i.e. especially hard at work) and Sickert might have picked up the same habit.

    On voice - the large theatres of Victorian London did not possess any amplification so actors were trained to throw or project their voices so that audiences right at the back could hear. The inflections and style would have seemed "booming" mannered and strange to us.

    On character, 1888 theatre was still very much melodrama, and acting relied on gesture and "line" to reveal character - line is how the body is positioned, a raised hand (above the shoulder-line) would indicate power and dominance, for instance; a hand lower that the shoulder would show submission.

    Please don't think acting then was like film acting (or even stage acting) today, subtle and "realistic". In 1888, it was artificial, more like ballet or opera is still performed sometimes. I don't think an actor's talents would have helped "Jack" for a moment.

    Phil

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  • Sherlock Holmes
    replied
    No Phil no trick question but that is interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he also skilled in theatrical makeup use, changing his appearance, voice and stature?

    Mr Holmes

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  • Phil H
    replied
    To Phil H
    Why would he have moved on from him?


    I have no idea, Mr Holmes. I simply presented a statement I had read on this site. I have no information on Mr Marriott's thought processes.

    It could be that trevor's researches into the "Secret Ledgers" has convinced him that an alternative solution is more likely or better supported. But he may also never have been THAT convinced of the case against Feigenbaum anyway - who knows.

    By the way, on a separate topic, I think you will find Sickert was of Danish descent, not German. Or was that a trick question?

    Phil

    Leave a comment:


  • Phil H
    replied
    I have followed the Sickert debate since the 1970s when Knight's book came out. (The discussion, of course, goes back much further than that to Sitwell and Pash.)

    Cornwell, for all her huge expenditure, could do no more than demonstrate that Walter might have written some hoax letters - which would have been in line with his sense of humour, as I see it, but does not make him JtR.

    Indeed, the information I have suggests he may have been out of the country for at least some of the relevant dates.

    I attended the major exhibition of his work at the Royal Academy in 1992, specifically to see his pictures for myself and make a judgement on their alleged Ripper content. (I still have the cataolgue. I could see nothing that would make me believe that any Ripper associations are in the minds of those who see them.

    That is NOT to say that Sickert was not fascinated by murder and the Ripper case in particular. He was, as reminiscences by those he knew indicate. Again that does not make him "Jack".

    In short, the whole Sickert angle is a farrago - a tissue of half-truths and allegations with no solid foundation.

    Given your in-deth knowledge of the case, though, Mr Holmes, I'm probably telling you nothing new.

    Phil

    Leave a comment:

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