Lusk Letter sent to George Lusk of the vigilante committee

[Vigilantee]

Other way around, Sparky.

It doesnt matter which way round it is moron.

Wrong.

You clearly haven't or you wouldnt make such an obvious mistake.
[QUOTE=Doctor X;13629]

Have you had English 101 yet?

[QUOTE]

You really are an obnoxious **** arent you....

[Doctor X]

Its impossible to mistake a human kidney for a non human kidney.

Other way around, Sparky.

I doubt you've ever seen one.

Wrong.

Not only have I I've also dissected them.

Have you had English 101 yet?

--J.D.

[Vigilantee]

Its impossible to mistake a human kidney for a non human kidney. I doubt you've ever seen one. Not only have I I've also dissected them.

You notice Sam how he keeps failing to explain how the "experts" knew it was a human kidney?

--J.D.

[Vigilantee]

"I doubt that he wrote it."

That is the majority position I believe.

Well....... We all know about majorities (like conventions, the wise man nevers follow them).

[QUOTE=perrymason;13613]

".... this would indicate he didnt write it, but did stop there."

There is no doubt that the killer from Mitre Square was there in the entranceway to the Model Dwellings, but when, and whether the juxtaposition of the writing is happenstance, is in doubt.

[/QUOTE=perrymason;13613]

Theres no causal link indicated between the two. Anymore than there is the gas lamp and the killer. Both gas lamps and racist grafitti were plentiful in Whitechapel no need for spurious links with itinerant killers.

"Someone may have disturbed him yes, perhaps the man with the black bag who Mrs M saw go past just before 1am. He looked at club, maybe he heard Jack or the (hypothetical) people about to leave. Either of these could have disturbed Jack, the fast footsteps of the bag man or the people leaving (the footsteps Mrs M heard?)"

Dr Blackwell arrived with a watch at 1:16am. He examined the woman, and declared that she was cut as recently as 20 minutes earlier, but no later than 1/2 hour. That has Goldstein seen walking past at the latest of those 2 times, and a full 4 minutes ahead of Diemshutz's arrival time. There was no interruption in Dutfields Yard....and Liz's demeanor in death says it all. There was a murder...of a woman seen assaulted by a witness approx 1 to 11 minutes before she is cut.... once.

Or, we could split Blackwells estimate.... to be fair, after all why should it happen at the very latest of those estimates. So say 25 minutes earlier. Still interrupted?....or is he deciding.

Regards

I'd put the time of death just after 12:50 yes, judging from all the testimony.
around the same time Mrs M must have gone in as Goldy walks past. Several minutes before the cart arrives. Goldstein is walking exceptionally fast, thats enough to scare the killer. If anyone then left the club there's no way he'd hang around, his ears will be tuned to any possible disturbances or unusual noises in the street if he knows what he's doing.

The man seen pushing and attacking Stride six or seven minutes earlier, can't be her killer. He's just been seen assaulting a woman in clear sight, in the heart of the Ripper's territory, no one in their right mind would hang around.
He ran in the opposite direction to Schwartz if he had any sense. The real killer arrived soon after, unseen as usual, just before Mrs M came out of her house again.

[Doctor X]

You notice Sam how he keeps failing to explain how the "experts" knew it was a human kidney?

--J.D.

[Vigilantee]

Hi Vigilante,It'll stay fresh for a good few hours after liberating it from the body - no need to steal the juice as well. Besides - no morgue necessary: it might have been a pig's kidney.

No, I think thats a non-starter, its obviously human as all the medical experts testified it was, I've seen a pigs kidney and a human kidney they are visibly very different, and thats just from an amateur perspective, I'd trust medical experts on this even if not on the other details. They're not all mad.

Though I suppose it would be easier to smuggle a kidney from the morgue in ones pocket rather than a big jar....

".....Right, whose Dutfield by the way?"

I have little information on him but I understand he is the former owner of the property. The name was never erased.

"I doubt that he wrote it."

That is the majority position I believe.

".... this would indicate he didnt write it, but did stop there."

There is no doubt that the killer from Mitre Square was there in the entranceway to the Model Dwellings, but when, and whether the juxtaposition of the writing is happenstance, is in doubt.

"Someone may have disturbed him yes, perhaps the man with the black bag who Mrs M saw go past just before 1am. He looked at club, maybe he heard Jack or the (hypothetical) people about to leave. Either of these could have disturbed Jack, the fast footsteps of the bag man or the people leaving (the footsteps Mrs M heard?)"

Dr Blackwell arrived with a watch at 1:16am. He examined the woman, and declared that she was cut as recently as 20 minutes earlier, but no later than 1/2 hour. That has Goldstein seen walking past at the latest of those 2 times, and a full 4 minutes ahead of Diemshutz's arrival time. There was no interruption in Dutfields Yard....and Liz's demeanor in death says it all. There was a murder...of a woman seen assaulted by a witness approx 1 to 11 minutes before she is cut.... once.

Or, we could split Blackwells estimate.... to be fair, after all why should it happen at the very latest of those estimates. So say 25 minutes earlier. Still interrupted?....or is he deciding.

Regards

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Vigilante,

I just meant if he steals the kidney from the morgue (cos he cant get it anywhere else) why not take the juice too? What else does he carry it in?

It'll stay fresh for a good few hours after liberating it from the body - no need to steal the juice as well. Besides - no morgue necessary: it might have been a pig's kidney.

[Vigilantee]

To address your points addressed to me Vigilantee,..the site of the first murder was on International Mens Club property, a primarily Jewish socialist club, and Lawende, Harris and Levy I believe had just left the Imperial Club, when encountering who we think was Kate Eddowes and an unknown man.

Right, whose Dutfield by the way?

The only off-site artifacts that turn up from the Double Murder night are the apron piece, and the alledged Eddowes kidney section with From Hell. A single murder referenced. And if the grafitto refers to Jews, and was written by a Mitre killer who is Gentile, you can be fairly certain the word "blame" is not insignificant when interpreting it.

I doubt that he wrote it. The only reason they thought that was because it was said to be 'fresh', but that seems to relate to the assumption that had it been there long it would have been removed, which isnt necessarily true if it wasnt a Jewish neighbourhood. Another witness said it was blurred, which as its unlikely the first cop would have touched it means it was either old and someone had tried erasing it, or Jack had tried erasing it, perhaps with the apron. Either way this would indicate he didnt write it, but did stop there.

Interesting notion of having him joining some sort of Jewish Caravan from Berner to Mitre before Diemshutz arrives, and still assume that this is Jack the Ripper. Surely the ONLY reason to still include Liz is if her killer was interrupted by Diemshi(u)tz....something that is by senior medical opinion at the scene, on time of throat cut, impossible.

Someone may have disturbed him yes, perhaps the man with the black bag who Mrs M saw go past just before 1am. He looked at club, maybe he heard Jack or the (hypothetical) people about to leave. Either of these could have disturbed Jack, the fast footsteps of the bag man or the people leaving (the footsteps Mrs M heard?).

Liz had her throat cut so that she would die, end of story. And if thats a representation of what you believe to be a Jack the Ripper killing, thats your prerogative. But the way I see these, This Ripper guy wants what comes after the throat cut.

Yes thats how he starts, asphyxiation or strangulation, then throat cut on ground, then he gets interrupted.

[Vigilantee]

No need for a medical student/porter to steal it - spirits of wine was used by many people in many walks of life.

I just meant if he steals the kidney from the morgue (cos he cant get it anywhere else) why not take the juice too? What else does he carry it in?

To address your points addressed to me Vigilantee,..the site of the first murder was on International Mens Club property, a primarily Jewish socialist club, and Lawende, Harris and Levy I believe had just left the Imperial Club, when encountering who we think was Kate Eddowes and an unknown man.

As far as identifying with his failures, that had nothing to do with my post, as I had suggested he was re-directing blame upon those that must have killed Liz......the Mitre killer knowing where she was found,.. and that he didnt kill her. The only off-site artifacts that turn up from the Double Murder night are the apron piece, and the alledged Eddowes kidney section with From Hell. A single murder referenced. And if the grafitto refers to Jews, and was written by a Mitre killer who is Gentile, you can be fairly certain the word "blame" is not insignificant when interpreting it.

Interesting notion of having him joining some sort of Jewish Caravan from Berner to Mitre before Diemshutz arrives, and still assume that this is Jack the Ripper. Surely the ONLY reason to still include Liz is if her killer was interrupted by Diemshi(u)tz....something that is by senior medical opinion at the scene, on time of throat cut, impossible.

I dont believe this Ripper fellow that youve got pegged can be reasonably attributed to even one "failed" killing during that period. Considering that his real target is almost certainly the midsections of his victims.

Liz had her throat cut so that she would die, end of story. And if thats a representation of what you believe to be a Jack the Ripper killing, thats your prerogative. But the way I see these, This Ripper guy wants what comes after the throat cut.

[Sam Flynn]

Hmmmmm, I'm still not convinced, surely a medical student would know how to preserve something and could steal some medical spirit

No need for a medical student/porter to steal it - spirits of wine was used by many people in many walks of life.

[Vigilantee]

Oh like the internet is running out of space.

Next time I'll double it up just for that....

Next Lesson: you do not have to FULL QUOTE a post.

Just . . . quote the parts you respond too.

--J.D.

[Vigilantee]

But would he identify with his failures, or pretend they never happened?

And unless I'm mistaken on this, wasnt there a Jewish socialist club right near both sites? Could he have tagged on to a little group heading between the two. Between Mrs M going in and D arriving in his cart?

I think Glenn raised a good point when he mentions that the letter lacks the most popular nickname of the area at the moment, yet purports to have something "He who shall not be named" has taken.

I think another interesting fact is the lack of mention of the first killing of the night...one which I personally feel was not committed by HWSNBN anyway. That for me gives it some credibility....a hoaxer would have claimed both and Mrs Browns cut throat if he could....(she was the third woman that Double Event night who got her throat cut).

I think not signing it and not mentioning Stride fits perfectly with the Goulston St evidence...where he leaves a piece of only the Mitre Square murder evidence, and possibly a note on Jews and blame.....considering the site of the first murder is All Jewish, and virtually every witnesses is, and the "blame" might be their (Club steward, and the meetings speaker that night) blaming the Ripper from the first moment they sought help, based solely on a dead woman found inside their gates.

If I may put myself in the "human" part of Jacks shoes and address that situation,... had I finished a murder and upon heading back to the house hear that I'm being blamed for another one too, 45 minutes earlier, because a woman was found dead in the yard of a Jewish Mens Club, I might be inclined to call them liars in some fashion, but not murderers....bad form,... since I am one in this case as well.

I think thats why the GSG message may be real, a real mad killer would probably not damn someone else for killing, ...because he himself kills, and he might believe he's not a bad guy. But he might accuse them of lying.

Cheers all.

[Doctor X]

Next Lesson: you do not have to FULL QUOTE a post.

Just . . . quote the parts you respond too.

--J.D.