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  • I feel like I'm about to re-enter an unpleasant quagmire.

    Two things crossed my poor brain as I read this entire thread. They both dealt with "Being out side the box" or getting outside the box.

    First - although I think Pierre does not accept this interpretation - perhaps the Ripper did not write the Graffito. I say that with some real reluctance, because years ago, in that book "Who Was Jack the Ripper" I wrote an essay in which I tried to demonstate how the word "Juwes" as a replacement for "Jews" was possibly linked to an 1882 murder (in Dalton, England) of a police officer by a man named Thomas Orrock, whose eventual guilt was proven in part by the discovery that the letters "O. R. R. O. C. K." were actually entirely on a chisel found near the dead policeman, but had erroneously been first seen (with a naked eye), as "R. O. C. K." (a deeper study with magnification found the first two letters that had been hidden by wear). This clue turned out to be connected (and I had a book that said as much) to a clue used by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in his first Sherlock Holmes novella, "A Study in Scarlet" involving the name (like "Orrock" was a name) of "Rachel", found on a wall near a murdered man. The name is written in blood. It is "R". "A." "C." "H." "E." without the final "L." and Inspector Lestrade (who finds the clue) believes the murder will be linked to a "Madame Rachel" (a curious separate issue arises about Lestrade's use of that name when he is boasting, but it was not part of my one page essay*)

    My point in that 1,000 word essay was that Jack might have seen the first edition of "Beeton's Christmas Annual" for December 1887, which contained that novella of Conan Doyle's and got his idea to create a split word clue on the wall at Goulston Street. It was a clever idea, but like many it never caught on.

    But because of Pierre's insistence of looking outside the box, so to speak, I thought (at first) that perhaps Jack did not write the words on the Goulston Street wall. How about suggesting this instead: Jack commits his murder and flees with the bloodstained apron. A friend of Jack has become suspicious, and sees the murder, and follows Jack, watching him drop the apron where it was found. Jack continues fleeing. The overly loyal friend quickly writes the graffito on the wall to throw a false clue to the police. He makes the whole thing up. That might be a conclusion. I find it hard to totally believe as I put it down, but by isolating the whole quote a a false clue, it certainly puts all of us "outside the box" in considering what it meant!

    The alternative idea was looking at the word "Juwes" and considering it as a linguistic curiosity as well as that double negative. My father was a linguist, and I don't pretend to have a one-hundredth of his wonderful abilities with English and ten other languages (including Hebrew, Greek, Latin, German, Russian, Yiddish, and French, Italian, and Spanish). I do know that dictionaries (like the Oxford English Dictionary) have etymology sections, and I keep thinking Pierre wanted us to concentrate on that. He also was stressing roots or words. My father sometimes mentioned this to me, regarding Hebrew for example, and how letter combinations from that tongue can connect many words (this also happens in other languages). But "Juwes"? Sorry, nothing comes to mind, except one possibility, which I fear Pierre did not mean.

    What if "Juwes" was a misspelling of "Jewess"? Meaning female Jews. In that case the double negative about "men" may mean that it was "women" that Jack or whoever wrote the graffito meant. The women would not be caught for nothing. Now if "Jewess" for some reason was a slang term for "prostitute" or "whore" in 1888, than the phrase might mean "The whores will not be caught [give their physical favors] for nothing [without payment]." I must admit I find that stretching things quite a bit. I prefer what I wrote that was published in that book.

    Jeff

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Pierre View Post


      If I had the time I would now look through my dictionary to find the authentic word for these "men". But I donīt (work to do) so perhaps someone else will do it.
      So, have I got this right, you are trying to tell us that you have no idea if there is any such word in the dictionary as you describe but you would like someone else to scour the dictionary for you trying to find such a word, which might not exist, because you are a bit too busy to do it yourself?

      Perhaps you also think we are all idiots?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
        So, have I got this right, you are trying to tell us that you have no idea if there is any such word in the dictionary as you describe but you would like someone else to scour the dictionary for you trying to find such a word, which might not exist, because you are a bit too busy to do it yourself?

        Perhaps you also think we are all idiots?
        Aren't we? I mean, honestly? Aren't most of us that guy who will scour a bloody dictionary just to prove someone wrong?
        The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Pierre View Post
          Well, if you ask me, I would start by analysing the word stem. So what is the authentic word stem?

          Since we have forgotten about "j-e-w -s" we could NOT use the "e". And that is confirmed by the writing. The vocal is "u".

          So we must accept the combination of "j-u-" and then we have the "w" (v+v) but that letter seems to belong to the word "j-e-w-" so it does not fit the "j-u-".

          So I think I would drop the w and keep the rest. Then we have a bit of a word stem (a root) and this is "ju". This is not the authentic stem but must be a part of it.

          If I had the time I would now look through my dictionary to find the authentic word for these "men". But I donīt (work to do) so perhaps someone else will do it.

          Regards, Pierre
          So you have no idea of what the word is, if not Juwes?
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • I believe this is an example of what one of the Policemen transcribed as the GSG. Clearly the accuracy of the spelling could be that from the pen of the Policeman (his own spelling) and I suppose might have inadvertently corrected a mis-spelling on the wall. However, this seems deliberately placed/spaced out and so I'm inclined to think it is exactly as written. I wonder whether that might even be to the point of being a copy of the handwriting on the wall (rather than necessarily the Policeman's own). If that were true, then that would open up some possibilities maybe. Curious that the word Blamed begins with a capital.

            On a personal level, on balance I believe the GSG was written by JTR and that the second word was Juwes (whatever it meant or even was meant to be).
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • And here's one possibility - quite often people write the word Dukebox when they mean Jukebox. What if the GSG contained a reversal of that logic and the word was meant to be say Duwes, Chuwes or something along those lines. There again, maybe not!

              A relative used the word Bowcher when referring to a Belcher Chain. The reason being that that is what it sounded like in a Southern/Cockney accent.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MysterySinger View Post
                I believe this is an example of what one of the Policemen transcribed as the GSG. Clearly the accuracy of the spelling could be that from the pen of the Policeman (his own spelling) and I suppose might have inadvertently corrected a mis-spelling on the wall. However, this seems deliberately placed/spaced out and so I'm inclined to think it is exactly as written. I wonder whether that might even be to the point of being a copy of the handwriting on the wall (rather than necessarily the Policeman's own). If that were true, then that would open up some possibilities maybe. Curious that the word Blamed begins with a capital.

                On a personal level, on balance I believe the GSG was written by JTR and that the second word was Juwes (whatever it meant or even was meant to be).
                It's funny but I showed this picture to my fiance who nothing about any of this, and he thinks it says "Irises". And to be fair, that does look like an I not a cursive J.
                The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                Comment


                • Here's a simple solution. What if the author was a native German speaker, whose grasp of English wasn't brilliant? Thus, I believe the German word for Jew is "Juden". So, whilst writing the graffiti in a hurry-not wanting to get caught-he inadvertently uses the first two letters of the word in German, "ju", rather than English, "je".

                  Comment


                  • I think we will solve this one

                    [QUOTE=MysterySinger;373116]I believe this is an example of what one of the Policemen transcribed as the GSG. Clearly the accuracy of the spelling could be that from the pen of the Policeman (his own spelling) and I suppose might have inadvertently corrected a mis-spelling on the wall. However, this seems deliberately placed/spaced out and so I'm inclined to think it is exactly as written. I wonder whether that might even be to the point of being a copy of the handwriting on the wall (rather than necessarily the Policeman's own). If that were true, then that would open up some possibilities maybe.

                    Curious that the word Blamed begins with a capital.
                    Hi MysterySinger,

                    very interesting. You point out that the word "Blamed" is written with a capital letter. I havenīt been thinking about this.

                    I interpret the capital B in "Blamed" as the word being especially important. The capital letter highlights the word and enhances its position in the text and therefore it gives a significant meaning to the text.

                    Is is connected to "Juwes" and to "the men".

                    So what is the etymological meaning of "Blamed" in this text?

                    We can start by comparing it to its synonyms:

                    Synonyms: blame, fault, guilt

                    These nouns denote responsibility for an offense or error. Blame stresses the assignment of accountability and often connotes censure or criticism: The police laid the blame for the accident on the driver.

                    Fault suggests a failure or deficiency on the part of the responsible party: It's my own fault that I wasn't prepared for the exam.

                    Guilt applies to willful wrongdoing and stresses moral or legal transgression: The prosecution had evidence of the defendant's guilt.

                    Interpretation: The word is connected to accountability, fault and guilt.

                    The significance of the blame has different weight in different settings: from a light weight in the word accountability since it is not objectively connected to a crime or legal procession and to a heavy weight in the example of the "blame for the accident" laid by the police (rendering the word blame a heavier weight).

                    It has also a synonym "guilt" which gives the word "blame" a substantial significance since it is connected to a legal meaning.


                    "The men" that will not be "Blamed" is therefore pointing to accountability and guilt which can be connected to a legal transgression.

                    Since that legal transgression is obvious in the case of the Double Event murders it is highly plausible that the word "Blamed" is written by the killer and that it points out the guilt of the "Juwes" in two ways:


                    those who should be "Blamed" and those who will NOT take the blame.

                    So the next question is: Who are the "Juwes"?


                    Is there any word in the English dictionary that starts with the root Ju-, ends with the plural -es (since it refers to "the men") and has 1-2 letters (for w = v+v) in the middle for the, with high probability misread word "Juwes" (seeing that this text has a full coherence in its meaning based on the rest of the words in it)?

                    If we could find that word, I think we could solve it.

                    Perhaps someone could help me. (Those of you who native speakers of English probably have much more extensive dictionaries than I have.)

                    Regards, Pierre

                    Comment


                    • It's always worth remembering that we are NOT looking at the original text. Sir Charles Warren put paid to that. So we can scrutinize the finer details of the handwriting all we want, but ultimately we're still dealing with rough copies from policemen who couldn't agree between themselves.

                      I'm still going with 'Jewes'. I think DC Halse mistook the partially looped 'e' for a 'u', which is easily done.

                      It was antisemitic graffiti outside Jewish lodgings, in the heart of a Jewish neighbourhood. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out what was going on here. Jews were flooding into London & the rest of Western Europe to escape the pogroms. Racial tensions were high. Clearly, whoever wrote the graffiti felt there was a good reason the Jews were being persecuted and that they aren't quite the innocent party they claim to be.
                      Last edited by Harry D; 03-09-2016, 07:37 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Hi all

                        Know said I was out of this thread as far as debating and following the leads was based, but i am still reading. and just wanted to add a final few thoughts.



                        Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                        It's always worth remembering that we are NOT looking at the original text. Sir Charles Warren put paid to that. So we can scrutinize the finer details of the handwriting all we want, but ultimately we're still dealing with rough copies from policemen who couldn't agree between themselves.

                        I'm still going with 'Jewes'. I think DC Halse mistook the partially looped 'e' for a 'u', which is easily done.

                        It was antisemitic graffiti outside Jewish lodgings, in the heart of a Jewish neighbourhood. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out what was going on here. Jews were flooding into London & the rest of Western Europe to escape the pogroms. Racial tensions were high. Clearly, whoever wrote the graffiti felt there was a good reason the Jews were being persecuted and that they aren't quite the innocent party they claim to be.

                        Harry D,



                        i see no reason for not accepting your reasoning above as being at least as good as any other interpretation.






                        My dear Pierre,



                        "Is there any word in the English dictionary that starts with the root Ju-, ends with the plural -es (since it refers to "the men") and has 1-2 letters (for w = v+v) in the middle for the, with high probability misread word "Juwes""


                        I am sure you have a word in mind and have done since the start of the thread,
                        You called it "An experiment", which implies testing of an idea with an end point, what we have is however a word game which with all due respect is not an experiment.

                        Your reasons for saying you do not have a word in mind are yours and so be it. I do not wishes to offend at all but that is how it comes across.


                        A check of several dictionaries gives little that fits the task you are setting, and lets be honest, that’s what you are doing, I do understand.

                        There is one word that stands out, starts and ends as you say and has 2 letters in the middle, must admit not sure why "w" is seen by you as meaning 2 letters.
                        It also ties in with guilt and blame


                        the word is JUDGES



                        " it is highly plausible that the word "Blamed" is written by the killer"

                        This is highly speculative to say the least, we are talking about an assumed meaning of a word (that may not have been recorded correctly to begin with) ,based on an abstract idea , conceived because the theories about the meaning of "juwes" do not not fit with your theory.


                        This really is my last word on this, the thread as become boring.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
                          Hi all

                          Know said I was out of this thread as far as debating and following the leads was based, but i am still reading. and just wanted to add a final few thoughts.






                          Harry D,



                          i see no reason for not accepting your reasoning above as being at least as good as any other interpretation.






                          My dear Pierre,



                          "Is there any word in the English dictionary that starts with the root Ju-, ends with the plural -es (since it refers to "the men") and has 1-2 letters (for w = v+v) in the middle for the, with high probability misread word "Juwes""


                          I am sure you have a word in mind and have done since the start of the thread,
                          You called it "An experiment", which implies testing of an idea with an end point, what we have is however a word game which with all due respect is not an experiment.

                          Your reasons for saying you do not have a word in mind are yours and so be it. I do not wishes to offend at all but that is how it comes across.


                          A check of several dictionaries gives little that fits the task you are setting, and lets be honest, that’s what you are doing, I do understand.

                          There is one word that stands out, starts and ends as you say and has 2 letters in the middle, must admit not sure why "w" is seen by you as meaning 2 letters.
                          It also ties in with guilt and blame


                          the word is JUDGES



                          " it is highly plausible that the word "Blamed" is written by the killer"

                          This is highly speculative to say the least, we are talking about an assumed meaning of a word (that may not have been recorded correctly to begin with) ,based on an abstract idea , conceived because the theories about the meaning of "juwes" do not not fit with your theory.


                          This really is my last word on this, the thread as become boring.

                          Good job El!
                          although Pierre will deny it, im sure that's the word he had in mind when he started this thread.

                          although the idea that a whole number of police mis read Juwes for judges is pretty laughable.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • I believe, the word judges has been posited before.
                            In reference to the trial and execution of Israel Lipski.

                            Comment


                            • I know they were more used to reading cursive than we are, but surely somewhere along the line someone had to look at that word and just come to a decision as to what it said. Because in our heads we look for familiar patterns, and it's only when we don't come up with one that we put together a word like Juwes. And agree on it. So how many people saw Juwes because the first guy who saw the grafitti saw it? And how long did it take him to puzzle that out?
                              The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
                                I believe, the word judges has been posited before.
                                Yes we can find it suggested in a post by Howard Brown on JTR forum as long ago as 14 November 2009 in which he said:

                                "Although I would side with those who tend to see it as a misspelled expression of the word "Jews", Nina has suggested that it might be a misrepresentation of the word "The Judges"."

                                Nina found an example of the word "JUDGES" - in block capitals mind - which looks just like "JUWES" as can be seen in post 3 here:

                                http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=7972

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