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I'm not a butcher, I'm not a Yid......

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  • I'm not a butcher, I'm not a Yid......

    I am aware as are most on here that the following was quoted by Sir Melville Macnaghton in his memoirs, it being one of the first communications he read concerning the Ripper;


    "I'm not a butcher
    I'm not a Yid
    Nor yet a foreign skipper
    But I'm your own light-hearted friend
    Yours truly
    Jack the Ripper"


    However I'd be interested to know the source for the 'apparent' preceding two verses that appear as follows;

    "Up and down the goddamn town
    policemen try to find me
    But I ain't a chap yet to drown
    In drink or Thames or sea.

    I've no time to tell you how
    I came to be a killer
    But you should know, as time will show
    That I'm society's pillar


    Ay information welcome as I'm unable to find any pointers ;-)
    ‘There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact’ Sherlock Holmes

  • #2
    Originally posted by Spider View Post
    I am aware as are most on here that the following was quoted by Sir Melville Macnaghton in his memoirs, it being one of the first communications he read concerning the Ripper;

    Nor yet a foreign skipper
    That I'm society's pillar[/I]

    Any information welcome as I'm unable to find any pointers ;-)
    Perhaps Jack's father and uncle were Master Mariners.

    His son in law was one of the top people at "Bedlam" and his mentor one of the Queen's doctors.
    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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    • #3
      Spider, where do the preceding verses come from? Were they also quoted by Sir Melville MacNaughten? They are certainly very interesting, with the mention of "society's pillar"-- who are, (perhaps) doctors, lawyers, bankers, governmental leaders, policemen...

      DJA, while I've done little except look at your suspect's obituary, I do see that "society's pillar" would fit him very well. Don't know if this sways me more his way, but it is certainly very interesting.
      Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
      ---------------
      Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
      ---------------

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
        Spider, where do the preceding verses come from? Were they also quoted by Sir Melville MacNaughten? They are certainly very interesting, with the mention of "society's pillar"-- who are, (perhaps) doctors, lawyers, bankers, governmental leaders, policemen...

        DJA, while I've done little except look at your suspect's obituary, I do see that "society's pillar" would fit him very well. Don't know if this sways me more his way, but it is certainly very interesting.
        Henry Sutton? Why would he have been the Ripper? What points to him, if anything?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
          Spider, where do the preceding verses come from? Were they also quoted by Sir Melville MacNaughten?
          Where they came form is exactly what I'm asking. As far as I'm aware only the third verse was quoted by Macnaghton in his memoirs.
          I came across the other two on the internet but no source was quoted.
          Hopefully someone on here may shed some light and maybe some provenance.
          ‘There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact’ Sherlock Holmes

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Spider View Post
            However I'd be interested to know the source for the 'apparent' preceding two verses that appear as follows;

            "Up and down the goddamn town
            policemen try to find me
            But I ain't a chap yet to drown
            In drink or Thames or sea.

            I've no time to tell you how
            I came to be a killer
            But you should know, as time will show
            That I'm society's pillar
            Those verses were probably made up by Donald McCormick in the late 1950s. I believe that doggerel first appears in his book The Identity of Jack the Ripper.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • #7
              Thank you, Sam Flynn. Annoying of him, if he did.
              Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
              ---------------
              Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
              ---------------

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
                Thank you, Sam Flynn. Annoying of him, if he did.
                No probs, PC Dunn. If you haven't read McCormick's book yet, it's worth getting a (cheap) second-hand copy, if only for a laugh. Don't get me wrong, it's an important milestone in the literature, but scarcely reliable. Thankfully, standards in Ripper books have significantly improved since then... in some cases, anyway
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Spider,

                  Donald McCormick littered his Ripper work with invented dialogue...amongst other things. He was highly suspected of involvement of more, later on.

                  His books on spies are also spread with made up invention.



                  Phil
                  Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                  Justice for the 96 = achieved
                  Accountability? ....

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                    Donald McCormick littered his Ripper work with invented dialogue...
                    Indeed, Phil. He took "creative writing" to a whole new level.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have not read very much of the older books on the Ripper, I will admit. Will keep an eye out for it. Yes, source lists and bibliographies are good things to put in books if you wish to be taken seriously!
                      Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                      ---------------
                      Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                      ---------------

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        Those verses were probably made up by Donald McCormick in the late 1950s. I believe that doggerel first appears in his book The Identity of Jack the Ripper.
                        I can't say I'm convinced of McCormick "probably" having made up the other two verses as they seem to run nicely in many respects with the Mcnaghton quoted verse from his 1913 memoirs but of course they could have been created later.
                        ‘There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact’ Sherlock Holmes

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Spider View Post
                          I can't say I'm convinced of McCormick "probably" having made up the other two verses as they seem to run nicely in many respects with the Mcnaghton quoted verse
                          Personally, I think the two extra verses don't match up to the original. Whilst the Macnaghten "I'm not a butcher" wasn't ever likely to win any prizes, at least it scans passably well. In comparison "Up and down the goddamn town" is appallingly bad, and seems to have been written by a poet of much lesser skill... which is saying something.
                          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            We'll have to beg to differ on our opinions of this.
                            I think the rather comedic feel to "Up and down the goddamn town"
                            sits rather nicely with the almost jovial "......But I'm your own light-hearted friend
                            Yours truly
                            Jack the Ripper"


                            It would be nice to find the source of the first two verses or to lay eyes on the original that Mcnaghten cited, though as with much of Jack the Ripper history there is little substantiated, it's always just beyond our grasp.
                            ‘There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact’ Sherlock Holmes

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Spider View Post
                              We'll have to beg to differ on our opinions of this.
                              I think the rather comedic feel to "Up and down the goddamn town"
                              sits rather nicely with the almost jovial "......But I'm your own light-hearted friend
                              Yours truly
                              Jack the Ripper"
                              It may be jovial, but the rhythms are far less sophisticated in the "extra verses" than in Macnaghten's original. In absolute poetic terms, the lines "But I ain't a chap yet to drown / In drink or Thames or sea" and "But you should know, as time will show / That I'm society's pillar" use tortuous English and are positively lame.

                              The phrase "the goddamn town", apart from being rather unidiomatic and decidedly inelegant, are frankly a waste of syllables. A much better option would have been "Up and down old London town", for example. Whoever wrote the extra verses, they evidently didn't expend too much time or effort on them.
                              Last edited by Sam Flynn; 12-30-2016, 11:19 AM.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment

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