Meaning of "Held to Bail"

[Jenni Shelden]

Hi Debs,

I thought it meant that you were held in the cells but were judged bailable but needed to await that money/surity to be raised.
I anm now trying to find an eg of where I got this from rather than just in the back of my mind!

Jenni

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Debs

I had a look in the Times for 'held to bail' which is searchable as a phrase, but I do not understand it. For instance, on Sept 3rd 1894 it's reported that Alfred Ward and others pleaded guilty to a charge - but were held to bail!

Hi Robert

I admit I'm perplexed by this myself, but on the strength of what you have written here, it sound like it may be bail conditions between admitting guilt and sentencing rather than bail awaiting an actual trial. But this is just spectulation.

EDIT : Sorry , Didn't see page two, missed answer from Chris

[Wyatt Earp]

According to the electronic edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, "to hold to bail" means "to bind or constrain by bail." The only examples of usage are from The Pickwick Papers ("Pickwick and Tupman he had already held to bail.") and the Times ("[He] was wrongfully held to bail to be of good behaviour.").

[Robert]

Ok, thanks Chris.

[Chris]

Thanks. I'm still puzzled though. I associate "bound over" with a trial that's concluded, and a guilty verdict. But there is an inquest on Thomas Leonard Shackard, reported Sept 14 1870 (sorry I can't post it - problems with Paint) where magistrates had "held him to bail to take his trial". The trial never took place because the accused committed suicide.

I think it's really a separate sanction rather than something associated with a guilty verdict.

From what you quote, "held to bail" could evidently refer to someone being bailed on condition that they attend a trial, but I think in the table Debs quoted that meaning must be excluded, and discharge, summary conviction/holding to bail and committal are considered to be three alternatives. (This is borne out by other examples available online where the numbers for those three add up to the total number of persons taken into custody.)

[Robert]

Hi Chris

Thanks. I'm still puzzled though. I associate "bound over" with a trial that's concluded, and a guilty verdict. But there is an inquest on Thomas Leonard Shackard, reported Sept 14 1870 (sorry I can't post it - problems with Paint) where magistrates had "held him to bail to take his trial". The trial never took place because the accused committed suicide.

[Chris]

I think it means the same as "bound over" - released and held to certain conditions, rather than held in custody.

[Robert]

Still Debs, that info should exist somewhere, unless it's been carefully stored beneath a pile of crap in some Government office somewhere.

[Robert]

Hi Debs

I can't even find any reports of gross indecency in the Times between c April 1888 - Jan 1890.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs

I had a look in the Times for 'held to bail' which is searchable as a phrase, but I do not understand it. For instance, on Sept 3rd 1894 it's reported that Alfred Ward and others pleaded guilty to a charge - but were held to bail!

Hi Robert, thanks.
This is exactly the same problem I had. There's no lack of use of the phrase but it is difficult to understand exactly what it actually means!

The context I have seen it in was part of a heading in published government statistical tables for crime and punishment for the year 1887.
Figures are given relating to gross indecency charges for 1887.

The table shows 11 people were taken into custody for the offence. In sequence, the table shows-
1) none of these 11 were discharged by a magistrate,
2) none were summarily convicted or held to bail [all one column],
3) 11 of the 11 were committed for trial,
4) 5 were convicted and sentenced,
5) 5 were acquitted,
6) 1 bill not found or not prosecuted [all one column]

I had been wondering if these tables (and there should also be one for 88) might show us the number of people who were held in custody on these charges, rather than bailed? But perhaps not.

[Robert]

Hi Debs

I had a look in the Times for 'held to bail' which is searchable as a phrase, but I do not understand it. For instance, on Sept 3rd 1894 it's reported that Alfred Ward and others pleaded guilty to a charge - but were held to bail!

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

It's not an expression I've ever come across, but my best guess would be 'held until the stipulated conditions of bail are met'. For instance pending sureties being arranged, or pending the surrender of a passport, that kind of thing. I do stress though that that's nothing more than a guess.

What's the context? Is it something related to Trevor's article?

Regards, Bridewell.

Thanks very much for the replies, Tracy and Colin.
Colin-sort of, maybe...

[Bridewell]

My Guess

What does "held to bail" mean, please, anyone?

Hi Debs,

It's not an expression I've ever come across, but my best guess would be 'held until the stipulated conditions of bail are met'. For instance pending sureties being arranged, or pending the surrender of a passport, that kind of thing. I do stress though that that's nothing more than a guess.

What's the context? Is it something related to Trevor's article?

Regards, Bridewell.

[tji]

Hi Monty

Can't help sorry

Hi Debs

Not 100% sure but i think it may just mean to be held without bail?


Tracy xx

[Debra A]

What does "held to bail" mean, please, anyone?