The Notorious Mrs Jeffries. Brothel keeper to the E

[miss marple]

Indeed yes MrBarnett, the more one explores the Dark underworld of Victorian vice, the more complex it gets. Firstly If you'd read my post on Madame Berthe, the brothel under that name had been operating since the 1820s under many owners.
The brothel Berthe's was probably as you say in Milton st Marylebone rather than the city.Madame Huberte say may have been the Madame, but the name is a coincidence. Marylebone was an area of London full of french people and coincidently somel Mary Kellys some born there.
Victor Stevens was a well known performer, musician, comedian etc who had appeared with Dan Leno.

So why did I start this thread? Because to understand the ripper murders. An understanding of the extent and operation of Victorian vice is essential. Some posters seem to be under the impression that the East End was the centre of the vice trade[ with toffs going down east]
which I think is due to a lack of knowledge of 19th century London history.
Of all the women murdered by the ripper, only Mary Kelly claimed to have knowledge of working in a West End brothal, of travelling to France with a gentleman and apparently claiming back clothes from a french woman in Knightsbridge and possibly having a relative on the London Stage. None of these statements are impossible, so the more information about the background of the vice trade might yield some clues.

Incidentally Cardiff had a very healthy vice trade with many brothals but I am not posting that on this thread!

Miss Marple

[MrBarnett]

Hi Miss Marple,

I think the Milton Street in question was the one in Marylebone (now Balcombe Street).

In 1881 the head of household of no. 18 was a French man, Huberte Possion and his French servant, Marie Lidouie.

As you probably know, by 1886 it was the residence of Marie Van der Houp and Victor Stevens and apparently a brothel.

Gary

I should have gone to Specsavers. Huberte was a lady - presumably Mme (Mlle?) Berte.

[MrBarnett]

I also found reference by Stead to another Brothel, Berthe's in Milton St which is in the City of London. This needs further investigation, a brothel run by a frenchwoman?

Miss Marple

Hi Miss Marple,

I think the Milton Street in question was the one in Marylebone (now Balcombe Street).

In 1881 the head of household of no. 18 was a French man, Huberte Possion and his French servant, Marie Lidouie.

As you probably know, by 1886 it was the residence of Marie Van der Houp and Victor Stevens and apparently a brothel.

Gary

[miss marple]

New Information.
Madame Berthe's was a notorious brothel operating since the 1820s, catering to the aristocracy run by many different people. It only did straightfoward sex. Mrs Jeffries wha had worked there, realised there was a market for perverted sex, under age girls, flagellation, etc. She catered to this market which explains her great success. She had a flagellation house at Rose Cottage Hampstead, the S&M house Grey's Inn Rd , The Chelsea brothels no 125 [ where she lived] 127 129 and 155 Church St,

I am getting the census records for theses places. Will post tomorrow,

Miss Marple

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Unrelated, but interesting...

(trying to search for French madam in London, got sidetracked a bit)

In France, prostitutes used to wear distinctive colours, mostly yellow or red, to be recognized as such.

But in the mid 19th Century, a law was passed forbidding prostitutes to wear clothing of bright colours.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Or she could simply have a French name and be of huguenot lineage, without being French herself.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I also found reference by Stead to another Brothel, Berthe's in Milton St which is in the City of London. This needs further investigation, a brothel run by a frenchwoman?

Miss Marple

If you get a name, I can run a search on the French side of Google.

[miss marple]

Just to get away from the inhabitants of Brompton Sq for a moment and back to the bigger picture. From reading the contemporary newspapers in 1885 there was a lot of anger at Jeffries light sentence, the failure to prosecute her in the past and the implication that Home Secretary Harcourt was engaged in a cover up, his failure to persue new leads on Jeffries, his attack on inspector Minahan who lost his job for exposing her and who would have been prosecuted for perjury had she pleaded not guily. By pleading guilty she protected the establishement from exposure and was rewarded with a fine and was able to continue her business. Harcourt did not want Stead to publish 'Maiden Trubute' which came out after the trial and he was punished by imprisonment, the injustice of which was also noticed by the press. By the time of the second trial in 1887 and after the Criminal Ammendment Act, the goverment was catching up with the public.

I also found reference by Stead to another Brothel, Berthe's in Milton St which is in the City of London. This needs further investigation, a brothel run by a frenchwoman?

Miss Marple

[Mayerling]

Yes, I agree there are some problems with the 1881 entry, Miss Marple but that could be explained by the the 1880 'Scottish' marriage may not have been entirely legal, in fact it may have been an invented part of the back story but there's no doubt May Jameson b 1857 in Ireland married George Salisbury in 1889 and lived with him after that, before that is a bit hazy, maybe he was just 'keeping' her before that? The child May Alice Montague Jameson Dashwood b 1879 may have been staying with someone else as May Jameson supposedly didn't give up acting until 1884. The 'actress' May Jameson at Brompton Square was also born 1857 in Ireland. Actress was often a euphemism for prostitute but there were also legitimate actresses around and there were also genuine bit part actresses who supplemented their income by prostitution I'd bet.

I forget how a "Scottish" marriage worked, but it was notoriously used by seducers to fool women into thinking they were legally married when they weren't. I believe it was used as the basis for Wilkie Collins' last major novel, "Man and Wife" in 1872.

Jeff

[MrBarnett]

Thats a good find. She is the right age in 81 except she was born in Hereford. Still leaves the mystery of why she was described as unmarried and living expensive Brompton Sq. Left the old man for a more lucrative life?

Miss Marple

Could be. I'm sure that between productions they struggled to make ends meet.

There was a Lillian De Lisle who was quite busy in 1890/91.

And there were several other Misses De Lisle treading the boards at the time: Cora, Fannie, Alma. Was it some kind of theatrical dynasty, I wonder, or was De Lisle just a fashionable stage name?

[miss marple]

Thats a good find. She is the right age in 81 except she was born in Hereford. Still leaves the mystery of why she was described as unmarried and living expensive Brompton Sq. Left the old man for a more lucrative life?

Miss Marple

[MrBarnett]

There is a Lilly De Lisle living with her husband, Harry, at 10, King Street Dudley on the 1871 census. They are both described as comedians. He was 27, she was 18 and they were both born in Preston.

[MrBarnett]

A Lillie De Lisle was appearing as 'Fernleaf' in Cinderella at the Grand Theatre, Cardiff in December, 1891.

From The South Wales Daily News 26/12/1891.

[Debra A]

Just a thought, try a search with the French spelling "Lili". Delisle is a very common French surname.

Thanks SJF. No luck with any variation of Lily ( I thought it may be spelt Lili on the 1881 census) for me.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

There's a Lily Delisle listed as a cast member in a production of 'The Octoroon' at The Theatre Royal, Manchester on July 23rd 1892. This was billed as the last week of Mr Flannagan's stock company's performances.

Just a thought, try a search with the French spelling "Lili". Delisle is a very common French surname.