Could anything every turn up to convince us?

[Fisherman]

Yeah but I want to read a bit more about the original before forming a view on a possible copy cat.

g
Copycat...? I don´t think there is any copycat involved at all. I think it was all the work of one and the same man.

Perhaps you are commenint on the "Pranzini copycat" thing? I don´t think Pranzini must have anything at all to do with the connection between the wax figures and the killings. I think it all began years before.

The building stones we are looking at are - to my mind - all part of the same bridge, creating a passage from 1873 all the way up to 1889.

[GUT]

Copycat...? I don´t think there is any copycat involved at all. I think it was all the work of one and the same man.
The building stones we are looking at are - to my mind - all part of the same bridge, creating a passage from 1873 all the way up to 1889.

Aren't you talking about the "JTR a Pranzini Copycat?" Thread?

[Fisherman]

Aren't you talking about the "JTR a Pranzini Copycat?" Thread?

Yes - but I am not talking about Pranzini. Mike Hawley was the guy who introduced Pranzini, and he (Mike, not Pranzini) speculated that JtR was perhaps a Pranzini copycat.

To me, the real revelation of the thread was the wax figure link. In those waxworks, produced before 1873, I think we are looking at the inspiration for and possible motive of both the Torso killings and the Ripper murders, at least to a significant degree.

[SuspectZero]

Yes - but I am not talking about Pranzini. Mike Hawley was the guy who introduced Pranzini, and he (Mike, not Pranzini) speculated that JtR was perhaps a Pranzini copycat.

To me, the real revelation of the thread was the wax figure link. In those waxworks, produced before 1873, I think we are looking at the inspiration for and possible motive of both the Torso killings and the Ripper murders, at least to a significant degree.

These may have been an inspiration but not necessarily a motive. Seeing eviscerated bodies may inspire the killer but something else drove him to kill. An underlying issue.

[Fisherman]

These may have been an inspiration but not necessarily a motive. Seeing eviscerated bodies may inspire the killer but something else drove him to kill. An underlying issue.

Absolutely - which is why I tell the matters apart.

Overall, I think that it seems that the killing part of the whole business often seems subordinate to the evisceration part, at least when it comes to the Ripper deeds. Many serial killers stretch out the killing part, involving elements of torture etcetera, but the Ripper seems to have fetched his gratification from beyond the moment of death to a major extent.

[SuspectZero]

Absolutely - which is why I tell the matters apart.

Overall, I think that it seems that the killing part of the whole business often seems subordinate to the evisceration part, at least when it comes to the Ripper deeds. Many serial killers stretch out the killing part, involving elements of torture etcetera, but the Ripper seems to have fetched his gratification from beyond the moment of death to a major extent.

Yes. I agree with you 100%.

[Michael W Richards]

Absolutely - which is why I tell the matters apart.

Overall, I think that it seems that the killing part of the whole business often seems subordinate to the evisceration part, at least when it comes to the Ripper deeds. Many serial killers stretch out the killing part, involving elements of torture etcetera, but the Ripper seems to have fetched his gratification from beyond the moment of death to a major extent.

Which is yet another reason to exclude Stride Fisherman.

[Barrister]

Too late to answer the question

What I would like to have is DNA evidence. There are two obvious problems with that. First, the ostensible Ripper letters have not been stored in a manner that protect the DNA. It has obviously been corrupted. The second problem, if you can call it that, is that JtR did not leave DNA evidence on the victims, thank God. If he had, we would still be where we are with the Ripper letters. Some authors have recently claimed they found provable DNA links, but those writers fail to understand that DNA evidence is useless unless one knows for certain who contributed the DNA. Since we do not know who the Ripper was, there is no point in testing any of the DNA samples in Scotland Yard's files. We may be able to prove that Mary Kelly was the ancestor of one of the recent authors, but that advances the discussion not a whit since there is no dispute Kelly was killed by the Ripper. The issue is who killed her. Bottom line, we have no usable, provable sample to compare to the letters or Kelly's corpse. More is the pity.

[GUT]

What I would like to have is DNA evidence. There are two obvious problems with that. First, the ostensible Ripper letters have not been stored in a manner that protect the DNA. It has obviously been corrupted. The second problem, if you can call it that, is that JtR did not leave DNA evidence on the victims, thank God. If he had, we would still be where we are with the Ripper letters. Some authors have recently claimed they found provable DNA links, but those writers fail to understand that DNA evidence is useless unless one knows for certain who contributed the DNA. Since we do not know who the Ripper was, there is no point in testing any of the DNA samples in Scotland Yard's files. We may be able to prove that Mary Kelly was the ancestor of one of the recent authors, but that advances the discussion not a whit since there is no dispute Kelly was killed by the Ripper. The issue is who killed her. Bottom line, we have no usable, provable sample to compare to the letters or Kelly's corpse. More is the pity.

Well actually some do dispute that MJK was killed by Jacky, others dispute she was killed at all.

[DJA]

Meh.

People who make coffee can't spell Barista!

[Stephen Lee]

I was thinking of this a while ago and my answer would be not just now.
I think it would take a huge leap in science (don't ask me what), to solve it once and for all.

[Barnaby]

To the original question, I think the answer may be very different if we answer it both in terms of "I" and "we." I can see myself some day being satisfied beyond reasonable doubt by new evidence, a powerful argument, or some combination of the two. But as a whole, we will never agree on his identity. In fact, the stronger the argument, the stronger the resistance to it seems to be.

[Clownwings]

Most victims who are strangled, almost always manage to scratch their assailant, even if strangled from behind (they scratch & claw at the hands around their neck) – so the obvious answer is DNA. Under the fingernails is a pretty good spot to be protected from decomposition, providing the body dries out rather than turns to soup. But since it is pretty cold underground, I think the chances of at least one of the C5 being in fairly mummified condition is pretty good. Better odds than the nothing we currently have at any rate.

Obviously the victims would first need to be DNA identified themselves, through descendants, and then if fingernail scrapings were viable, descendants of the known suspects could be one by one eliminated, until… perhaps… a match.

[GUT]

Most victims who are strangled, almost always manage to scratch their assailant, even if strangled from behind (they scratch & claw at the hands around their neck) – so the obvious answer is DNA. Under the fingernails is a pretty good spot to be protected from decomposition, providing the body dries out rather than turns to soup. But since it is pretty cold underground, I think the chances of at least one of the C5 being in fairly mummified condition is pretty good. Better odds than the nothing we currently have at any rate.

Obviously the victims would first need to be DNA identified themselves, through descendants, and then if fingernail scrapings were viable, descendants of the known suspects could be one by one eliminated, until… perhaps… a match.

G'day Clownwings and welcome to Casebook.

I foresee two or three problems, there:

1. Getting an exhumation order

2. They did wash the bodies pretty thoroughly so even if you get an order there may be nothing there (which makes getting an order even more problematic).

3. Identifying the bodies

[Clownwings]

Hi GUT,

I definitely know it would not be without considerable hurdles, but since it would be the best and probably only chance to scientifically prove fairly conclusively, then it is surely the only real answer to the OP. As you say, no one will accept a diary, or items found in a weird relatives attic. But DNA from under the fingernails of C5 victim that matches a known suspect? That's pretty conclusive.

As for washing the bodies, I very much doubt anyone got the fingernail scraper out, and cleaned out the grit and skin scrapings that were wedged underneath the nails, especially since these women were "unfortunates" in the first place. Thorough washing probably meant clean skin & hair.

As for exhumation, I understand that most people consider these women have gone through enough, and should be left to rest in peace. It is something to consider however, that since they have become mere vehicles in the mystery of who Jack is, they will toss & turn in history until they are no longer fodder for said mystery. One might argue that finding their killer, will be the thing that finally lets them rest in peace.

That said, probability of a mummified corpse with usable suspect DNA is very, very low. But very, very low is still a better shot than no shot at all.