Pierre's research so far...

[GUT]

Gotta swing it around over your head several times.

Sure do.

[DJA]

^ With a gum leaf in it!

Gotta swing it around over your head several times.

[Shaggyrand]

^ How do we know that the solder on the kettle burned off on the occasion of the murder though, (unless Abberline felt the kettle and it was still red-hot of course)? The spout could have dropped off days or weeks before.

That fire and what was put on it always fascinates me. How does a poverty-stricken someone with no visible means of support (so to speak) have so much fuel in her miserable room that her killer was able to maintain a blazing fire for some time? Kindling and coal costs money. Clothing smothers flame apparently, not cause it to flare up and blaze.

The solder could have melted off another time. It's certainly possible. Though there would be ways to tell. I always figured the spout was laying by the rest in the fireplace. If it had happened previously wouldn't the spout have been taken out and put aside instead of just left laying there?
Clothing smothers only when laid flat on the flame denying it oxygen. If it were balled or knotted it burns without problem.

[Rosella]

^ With a gum leaf in it!

[GUT]

having made a cuppa in a Billy can, that tastes just as good as from a kettle with a spout. She managed!

Actually better

[Rosella]

^ How do we know that the solder on the kettle burned off on the occasion of the murder though, (unless Abberline felt the kettle and it was still red-hot of course)? The spout could have dropped off days or weeks before.

I don't think that poor Mary was such a careful housewife that every time a pot or pan broke she took the pennies she'd been carefully saving and hurried off to the hardware shop. Tea was her probably not her beverage of choice but, having made a cuppa in a Billy can, that tastes just as good as from a kettle with a spout. She managed!

That fire and what was put on it always fascinates me. How does a poverty-stricken someone with no visible means of support (so to speak) have so much fuel in her miserable room that her killer was able to maintain a blazing fire for some time? Kindling and coal costs money. Clothing smothers flame apparently, not cause it to flare up and blaze.

[DJA]

Meh.

Old strategy to facilitate a return visit.

[SuspectZero]

Hi Jeff,
If my memory serves me correctly, the pipe was proved to belong to Mary's ex roomate.

I just double checked and Joe Barnett stated that the clay pipe that was found in the room belonged to him.

[Shaggyrand]

Considering that clothes were also burned in the fire, along with the spout and or solder melting, and along with the fact that abberline was there and assessed the situation in person, I think its a safe bet that it was probably a rather hot and thereby large fire.

I am not really sure about that. A normal wood fire in a home fire place at it's lowest consistent burn is about 500 °F and can be as high as 1100 °F or so without anything done to it. I can't remember the temp of a low coal fire off hand. The solder would have been tin most likely and melted at 370 °F, cotton cloth burns at 250 °F. So really it wouldn't have to have been a large fire by any means. The items just had to be put directly on the fire.

[Abby Normal]

My understanding about the kettle is not that the spout per se had melted, but that the solder attaching the spout to the kettle had melted, and the spout fallen off. I think Abberline was wrong to take that as proving that the fire must have been a large one. If the kettle were dry, it wouldn't take much of a fire at all to melt a solder join.

Hi Ginger
Considering that clothes were also burned in the fire, along with the spout and or solder melting, and along with the fact that abberline was there and assessed the situation in person, I think its a safe bet that it was probably a rather hot and thereby large fire.

[Ginger]

Hi Elamarna

I always though it odd that the fire place in Mary's room seemed so large for such a small space.. It was suggested to me that 13 Millers court had originally been the kitchen to a larger house in its day.

The patrician was a flimsy construction and an old door had probably been used in its construction but it didn't move or open.

Presumably it was simply a way of Macarthy extracting more money from the space.. Although the spout on the kettle was described as melted I think we should be cautious assuming the the spout melted due to the fire constructed from clothes by the killer..

Anderson makes reference to a clue, a broken pipe that was destroyed at the scene....which always made me wonder if the killer had time to sit back and enjoy his work with a pipe?

Yours jeff

My understanding about the kettle is not that the spout per se had melted, but that the solder attaching the spout to the kettle had melted, and the spout fallen off. I think Abberline was wrong to take that as proving that the fire must have been a large one. If the kettle were dry, it wouldn't take much of a fire at all to melt a solder join.

[jerryd]

Anderson makes reference to a clue, a broken pipe that was destroyed at the scene....which always made me wonder if the killer had time to sit back and enjoy his work with a pipe?

It's a nice thought Jeff, but I think Anderson confused this with the broken pipe in the McKenzie case during her post-mortem examination in 1889.

[SuspectZero]

Hi Elamarna

I always though it odd that the fire place in Mary's room seemed so large for such a small space.. It was suggested to me that 13 Millers court had originally been the kitchen to a larger house in its day.

The patrician was a flimsy construction and an old door had probably been used in its construction but it didn't move or open.

Presumably it was simply a way of Macarthy extracting more money from the space.. Although the spout on the kettle was described as melted I think we should be cautious assuming the the spout melted due to the fire constructed from clothes by the killer..

Anderson makes reference to a clue, a broken pipe that was destroyed at the scene....which always made me wonder if the killer had time to sit back and enjoy his work with a pipe?

Yours jeff

Hi Jeff,
If my memory serves me correctly, the pipe was proved to belong to Mary's ex roomate.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi jaden

On the time taken by the killer over murder 5:

Yes we now have a source, the Macnaghten Memoranda,
written by a policeman, not a doctor and written some years after the event and full of mistakes about the 3 names suspects.
Would have preferred a medical opinion, but can't have everything.
The point was, he had to barricade the door because he was taking so long, not sure he proves that even with the source, its still just an opinion.


On the prater stairs, there seems to be a disagreement about what a broken solid line means. there are several opinions, a brick wall with door, a symbol showing rooms above are part of same building, must admit i am out of my comfort zone on that issue.
Pierre of course is saying once again it proves a functional door into 13.
What is needed is someone who understands fire insurance maps. and could be authoritative on it, so far none have convinced me
In addition the plan is i gather 1890, so had there been any changes since 88?

Steve

yes it has been a terror. still must keep our heads up.

Hi Elamarna

I always though it odd that the fire place in Mary's room seemed so large for such a small space.. It was suggested to me that 13 Millers court had originally been the kitchen to a larger house in its day.

The patrician was a flimsy construction and an old door had probably been used in its construction but it didn't move or open.

Presumably it was simply a way of Macarthy extracting more money from the space.. Although the spout on the kettle was described as melted I think we should be cautious assuming the the spout melted due to the fire constructed from clothes by the killer..

Anderson makes reference to a clue, a broken pipe that was destroyed at the scene....which always made me wonder if the killer had time to sit back and enjoy his work with a pipe?

Yours jeff

[Mayerling]

I bet he already has an excuse for those 2 hours.

Yeah, I saw that thread a few days ago, I was like "not again", I mean there are 3 threads about the same thing, all posted by Pierre. What's the point in that?

I read his posts on that thread, Pierre is calling David a liar just 'cause David proved him wrong so many times, that only liar on here is Pierre.

Jaden

Hi Jaden and Steve,

I keep thinking the renewal of the same threads is to illustrate what Dr. Goebbels said, that if one tells a lie long everyone will believe it.

Only Dr. Goebbels (despite being a human swine) was brilliant.

Jeff