Different Killers

[Abby Normal]

The Whitechapel Murders, within which you have the C5, contains the Pinchin Street Torso. Since the Thames Torso murders are related, there is room to segway reasonably into this. One line of speculation is that the Thames Torso murders are the work of a gang and that a member of that gang is JtR who goes off and does his own thing. The gang hypothesis for the Torso murders seems stable. This would explain more about Emma Smith and her 'gang' related attack. The C5 expects that there will be more assaults attributed to JtR and possibly more murders. Hence Sugden reintroducing Tabram. C5+1

There has been too little focus on the Torso Murders in general.

Hi Batman
Agree. But I would posit that the torsos would not have been done by a gang. I see a single killer there too, but whether it was also the ripper-that's another question.

Emma smith as the work of the ripper, with a gang or not, seems farfetched to me. His deal was all about the knife and what it can do to the female body.
Its all about the knife with the ripper.

The knife.

[Batman]

Communism and Single Killer Hypothesis

Lynn there was one country that actually adopted your policy.

USSR - Serial killing was considered not possible in Russian culture and a purely western phenomenon.

How many victims did the Russian Andrei Romanovich Chikatilo get away with before someone realized they got it wrong and lust killers existed in Russia too?

[Batman]

Ah more 'coincidences' and we are not even talking Stride

Hello Rocky. Thanks. Just so.

And this makes the idea of cutting flaps from the body seem a bit more common. (See rot above.)

Cheers.
LC

So its another coincidence that Annie Chapman and Mary Jane Kelly both had their abdomen flaps cut into 3 sections which where placed near the bodies?

Is it also another coincidence that their legs and lower body are positioned the same way?

Is it also another coincidence that MJKs arm has been placed in her abdominal cavity and that Chapman has had her arm placed on her breast?

I thought the little illustrations that you wanted demonstrated this well. Or have you forgotten that already?

The idea there is nothing sexual about these crimes is just a bad observation and as worth repeating, not just unexampled, but we have tons of examples to the contrary and use what we know about these examples to network law enforcement departments, that otherwise wouldn't have been and allowed the person to kill more.

[Batman]

Agreed. So why not abandon all that rot about lust killers? I have.

Cheers.
LC

Your copycat hypothesis is unexampled.

Nothing comparable.

[Batman]

Since y'all are on about the flaps it's unfair to not include Jackson in this discussion and the similarities in to the ripper victims :

The Whitechapel Murders, within which you have the C5, contains the Pinchin Street Torso. Since the Thames Torso murders are related, there is room to segway reasonably into this. One line of speculation is that the Thames Torso murders are the work of a gang and that a member of that gang is JtR who goes off and does his own thing. The gang hypothesis for the Torso murders seems stable. This would explain more about Emma Smith and her 'gang' related attack. The C5 expects that there will be more assaults attributed to JtR and possibly more murders. Hence Sugden reintroducing Tabram. C5+1

There has been too little focus on the Torso Murders in general.

[lynn cates]

more common

Hello Rocky. Thanks. Just so.

And this makes the idea of cutting flaps from the body seem a bit more common. (See rot above.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

lust killers

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"Once Kelly is linked with Chapman . . ."

Good luck with that.

"Chapman is already linked to Eddowes . . ."

No, she isn't.

". . . who is linked to Kelly."

Sorry, no.

"The overlaps are plenty."

No.

"Your deviations, minor . . ."

Major.

"It is not just unprecidented . . ."

Eh? OH! You mean "unprecedented"?

" . . .that two lust killer with the same MO/Signature are operating in the same area, at the same time . . ."

Agreed. So why not abandon all that rot about lust killers? I have.

Cheers.
LC

[RockySullivan]

Jack the Torso ripper

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"Chapman and Kellys abdominal flaps were both removed in 3 sections. . ."

Can you show me a drawing of what this means? No one has ever stated what precisely is going on. It may be insignificant--or not.

". . . and the 3 parts posed."

Posed? Nonsense. Where on earth did this absurd claim come from?

"Since you have your Chapman suspect under lock & key at the time of MJKs murder he is innocent of both."

Innocent of "MJK."

Cheers.
LC

Since y'all are on about the flaps it's unfair to not include Jackson in this discussion and the similarities in to the ripper victims :

"The flaps of skin and subcutaneous tissue consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls. The left piece included the umbilicus, the greater part of the mons veneris the left labium majus, and labium minus. The right piece included the rest of the mons veneris, the right labium majus and minus, and part of the skin of the right buttock. These flaps accurately fitted together in the mid-line, and laterally corresponded to the incisions in the lower pieces of the trunk. The skin was fair, and the mons veneris was covered with light sandy hair. The upper part of the vagina was attached to the uterus; both ovaries and broad ligaments were present, and the posterior wall of the bladder. The uterus had been opened on the left side by a vertical cut, six inches long, through the left wall. The organ was much dilated the vessels on the inner surface large and open and the mucus membrane swollen and softened. The uterus measured 10in. long by 7.5 in. wide. The circumference of the os externum was 4in….

[John G]

Hello Jon,

It does occur to me that, in respect of Kelly, we are dependent on the opinion of Dr Bond. Now it seems to me that is unfortunate, particularly when you consider that his general conclusions are clearly at odds with his professional colleagues. For instance, in relation to anatomical knowledge exhibited by the killer, after reviewing the C5 he stated : "in my opinion he does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cutting up dead animals."

What I also find significant is that Dr Phillips, who was not called upon to give evidence at Eddowes' inquest, and who clearly held contrary views to Bond, at least as regards Chapman, says virtually nothing about the condition of the body and during the inquest he suppressed details of Kelly's injuries.

What is particularly disconcerting is that Dr Bond was clearly a very controversial figure: he thought Rose Mylett had accidentally strangled herself despite the fact that four other physicians concluded she'd been murdered. Wynne Baxter was scathing of this analysis, regarding the idea of death by nature causes as "nonsense".

[Batman]

>1 is significant

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Are you suggesting Annie weighed only one stone? (heh-heh)

Significant? Can't say. I have seen suggestions that the 39 wounds on Tabram were significant.

Here's why the flaps may NOT be significant. IF they were just another way of opening the body--not significant. If part of a standard surgical technique, quite significant.

But if ALL the C5 were opened with 3 flaps--MOST significant, especially if it were shown to be by design.

C2, C5, C550, same significance if >1. The significance of two, which you seem to forget, is that one is Chapman and the other is Kelly. The multi-killer hypothesis does not present these as by the same hand. This goes for your multikiller hypothesis. Once Kelly is linked with Chapman, Chapman is already linked to Eddowes, who is linked to Kelly. The overlaps are plenty. Your deviations, minor, explained my normal variation in MO. So they are not just explained, they are predicted! The CB page I linked explains why perfectly well and even has those little drawings for you.

It is not just unprecidented, that two lust killer with the same MO/Signature are operating in the same area, at the same time, but unprecidented even amoung known copycats, not connected by geography or time, that they would perform such mutilations to this level of detail. A detail, again we shall add, that you didn't even seem to appreciate, so could your copycat in the space of a few weeks?

There is nothing 'standard' about a signature of removing the abdominal skin in 3 flaps and placing said 3 flaps.

It also doesn't take a whole pile of thought to realize that the mutilation complexity and 'avoiding detection' is without a reasonable doubt directly correlated.

[lynn cates]

read up

Hello John. Thanks.

Well, with Eddowes we are talking of a kidney. Were they more valuable/less readily available? Don't know.

"if you reject Trevor's hypothesis then, as I see it, it becomes very difficult to argue that either Chapman or Eddowes were killed by someone who was unknowledgeable about human anatomy and surgical techniques, especially when you consider issues such as the clean cuts"

Clean cuts? Undoubtedly Chapman's case. Kate's, the opposite. But I do think Kate's killer had read up or consulted.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

showing the bird--who weighed one stone

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Are you suggesting Annie weighed only one stone? (heh-heh)

Significant? Can't say. I have seen suggestions that the 39 wounds on Tabram were significant.

Here's why the flaps may NOT be significant. IF they were just another way of opening the body--not significant. If part of a standard surgical technique, quite significant.

But if ALL the C5 were opened with 3 flaps--MOST significant, especially if it were shown to be by design.

(Really, you need to get clear on what you mean by posing. In your haste to prove some point, ANYTHING seems to count as posing.)

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

Very well, but that leaves motive.

The remark about "excised" pertains to the fact that the mortuary attendants had cut her clothes.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Thanks for the clarification on what "excised", pertained to in this context. I must admit I was a little unsure myself!

I agree that motive's an issue, which is why I'm loath to fully accept Trevor's arguments. However, surely issues of motive equally apply to Eddowes.

Another difficulty is that if you reject Trevor's hypothesis then, as I see it, it becomes very difficult to argue that either Chapman or Eddowes were killed by someone who was unknowledgeable about human anatomy and surgical techniques, especially when you consider issues such as the clean cuts, poor lighting conditions and time frame.

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

It does seem that far less skill was apparent in Kelly's case, as opposed to Chapman or Eddowes.I find this somewhat perplexing, especially when you consider the fact that Kelly was killed indoors, and therefore her killer would have had far more time to take a more methodical, less frenzied, approach. Presumably he would also have the advantage of better lighting conditions.

It`s because of the similar lighting conditions (dim) in the Chapman and Kelly cases that there are many similarities.
Again, Nichols, Eddowes and McKenzie were all served with the long downward cut in much darker conditions.

I think the Kelly murder was more methodical than frenzied.

Regarding killing indoors. It may have been on the killers mind that Kelly`s partner could return at any minute, and we really don`t know how long the killer spent in the room. It may have been half an hour, or maybe it was one or two hours, which would tell us a great deal about how comfortable the killer felt in the room.

Of course, these arguments are somewhat negated if you accept that the body parts were removed elsewhere than the crime scene.!

I will need a lot more than what has been offered so far for the above theory to be feasible.

Then there's the fact that Kelly may have been asleep when attacked; that suggests that her killer exhibited a high level of self restraint prior to the assault, which is difficult to reconcile with the frenzied nature of her murder.
.!

But doesn`t this suggest that it wasn`t as frenzied as you think ?

However, as I have noted before ritualistic behaviour in sexual homicides can evolve or become more elaborate: one offender progressed from cutting, to decapitation to evisceration; whilst another began with postmortem genital mutilation before progressing to dismemberment : see Schlesinger, 2010.

Perhaps we shouldn't therefore rule out a link with the Torso Murders!

I don`t !! ;-)

[Batman]

"Placed" and 2 bird, 1 stone

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"Chapman and Kellys abdominal flaps were both removed in 3 sections. . ."

Can you show me a drawing of what this means? No one has ever stated what precisely is going on.

No one? Hardly. I referenced Sugden first of all and secondly, here is CB on it. http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...timwounds.html Quite clear diagram on Chapman.

It may be insignificant--or not.

How can this be insignificant to the multiple killer hypothesis? You are now stuck with a signature involving the removal of the abdominal walls in three portions in the early murder of Chapman and the later murder of Kelly. The fact you are unsure about this demonstrates what others have just said - that if you are unsure about it, having studied the case as much as you tell us, how could a copycat have noted it?

". . . and the 3 parts posed."

Posed? Nonsense. Where on earth did this absurd claim come from?

It is a signature. Why would you think these murders don't have any? What you are saying goes beyond just the Whitechapel murders, it is like saying behavioural analysis is all wrong.

Chapman autopsy - had been lifted out of the body and placed on the shoulder of the corpse.

Eddowes - The intestines were drawn out to a large extent and placed over the right shoulder - they were smeared over with some feculent matter. A piece of about two feet was quite detached from the body and placed between the body and the left arm, apparently by design. <--


"Since you have your Chapman suspect under lock & key at the time of MJKs murder he is innocent of both."

Innocent of "MJK."

He is not just innocent of MJK but 'exonerated' in the case of Chapman also. 2 birds. 1 stone.