Whitechapel Murders police 'coincidences' with holidays/starting/quiting jobs

[Mayerling]

And what was that message? That he's one sick puppy? Well the same applies to Eddowes. You certainly couldn't discern any political agenda from the Miller's Court slaughter.

Somehow what happened to Mary Kelly, even with full attention to what happened to Catherine Eddowes, was so far more horrible that it would make any thoughts of the Ripper being "treatable" by 19th Century mental illness specialists go out the window (no pun intended regarding Mary's broken window). I personally can't see any political agenda message in all this, aside from the police being considered stupid by the killer. But Jack probably considered the whole world stupid, aside from himself.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

And what was that message? That he's one sick puppy? Well the same applies to Eddowes. You certainly couldn't discern any political agenda from the Miller's Court slaughter.

Even after what he did to Eddowes, horrendous as it was, it was as nothing to what he did to Mary Kelly. VERY, VERY sick puppy indeed!

I'm talking about leaving a message INSIDE the bedroom, not outside.

So was I. If he took the trouble to be outside to write a message, he could have strolled away from the area, found an empty corner and scribbled something. He would not have under any immediate suspicion at the time.

Jeff

[Harry D]

As for the Ripper not leaving any message on the wall for the police after butchering Mary Kelly, the actual physical injuries he did to her remains is a sufficient message

And what was that message? That he's one sick puppy? Well the same applies to Eddowes. You certainly couldn't discern any political agenda from the Miller's Court slaughter.

...but further, there was a broken window giving any passerby a view of the interior of Mary's room. If the Ripper removed his clothing and then cut up her body, and then redressed himself, he would have been aware that had he taken the time to write a message afterwards it would have increased the possibility of his being seen through the window by some inquisitive passerby - one who could anonymously flee the Miller's Court area (ironically melting into the neighborhood, as the Ripper had done repeatedly after his killings) without leaving any immediate clues to whom he or she was - and if that party recognized the Ripper might report him to the police or (far worse) actually safely confront the Ripper for the purposes of blackmail. Every second beyond what he had accomplished in killing and mutilating Mary's body and possibly redressing himself (and clearing out without leaving any traceable clue) had to be concentrated on - not on writing messages on walls and risking it all.

I'm talking about leaving a message INSIDE the bedroom, not outside.

[Tom_Wescott]

At the time Polly Nichols was murdered Warren was also reported to be resigning and potential replacements for him were even named in the press. However, it would be an interesting exercise to look in 1887 and 1886, etc to see if similar upheavals in the upper echelons of the police weren't happening. I'd bet they were and yet prostitutes weren't being slaughtered. So, what Batman suggests is something to keep in mind, but without something firm to draw a connection, it's a massive logic leap to go from Anderson's appointment to the murder of an East End prostitute.

However, I'm with you in that a lot of the stuff written off as 'coincidence' so that authors can stick to a clean narrative sits awkwardly with me as well.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Mayerling]

The fact JtR didn't cover Mary Kelly suggests he had absolutely no connection to her. However the overkill suggests he is hiding his surgical skills but is also doing this to shock the police with a shocking sexual murder.

Warren resigns and the murders 'stop'. Why isn't that a clue?

My guess it is not regarded by most as a clue is that it assumes that Mary Kelly's butchering is the last of the series of murders. If we assume the whole series is to damage Scotland Yard's reputation and ends with Mary Kelly because of Warren's resignation - why are there rumors linking the Ripper with at least three more murders up to 1891 (Frances Coles)?

As for the Ripper not leaving any message on the wall for the police after butchering Mary Kelly, the actual physical injuries he did to her remains is a sufficient message - but further, there was a broken window giving any passerby a view of the interior of Mary's room. If the Ripper removed his clothing and then cut up her body, and then redressed himself, he would have been aware that had he taken the time to write a message afterwards it would have increased the possibility of his being seen through the window by some inquisitive passerby - one who could anonymously flee the Miller's Court area (ironically melting into the neighborhood, as the Ripper had done repeatedly after his killings) without leaving any immediate clues to whom he or she was - and if that party recognized the Ripper might report him to the police or (far worse) actually safely confront the Ripper for the purposes of blackmail. Every second beyond what he had accomplished in killing and mutilating Mary's body and possibly redressing himself (and clearing out without leaving any traceable clue) had to be concentrated on - not on writing messages on walls and risking it all.

Jeff

[Batman]

I'm sorry to come back to it, but if the Ripper did have a political agenda and was the author of the GSG, then why didn't he leave a message in Miller's Court? We're expected to believe that in the middle of a getaway he stopped in a stairwell to scribble a vague, ambiguous message on a wall, but when he had a whole room to himself and ample opportunity to make his big message... he didn't?

If JtR had a political agenda, it would be more about the police and their handling of the racial situation with Jews. I would keep it minimalistic. Local gentile with an axe to grind with the community because of the jewish situation but takes it out on the prostitute class in Whitechapel.

If I was to stretch things I might go as far as to say a medical doctor who didn't get the promotion they expected (may even be related to police appointments etc.) and so took out some sort of revenge on society. At one time I held the opinion JtR had no medical knowledge. However anyone who has looked into kidney removal and heart removal will have to be stunned by how JtR did this without medical knowledge. It is one thing to see the different coloured organ parts on a medical anatomy model and another when they are all red if not appearing jet black in the darkness JtR was in. You don't just chance getting the kidney or chance severing the heart from the top by going under the ribcage. IMO JtR tried to cover his tracks by mutilating the victims further to try to hide the surgical precision that he had. Eddowes for example and Mary Kelly are both overkills if the objective was the acquition of a specific organ(s) for sexual deviant reasons.

However to answer your question which is valid I feel I have a solution. JtR was interrupted by Schwartz who received the racial slur LIPSKI from JtR's own mouth. It was loud apparently. A Jew has disturbed JtR. In response following the overkill of Eddowes Jack writes the GSG because of Schwartz. If we don't read too much into what the graffito says, basically JtR is saying Schwartz is the type of race (jew) who won't take responsbility for anything in London. He is using gentile double-cockney.

So the GSG is a response to Schwartz disturbing JtR. That is why he did it.

However no jew or anyone disturbed JtR with Mary Kelly. Therefore no racial slurs appeared because JtR had been able to go beyond anything he had done before.

The fact JtR didn't cover Mary Kelly suggests he had absolutely no connection to her. However the overkill suggests he is hiding his surgical skills but is also doing this to shock the police with a shocking sexual murder.

Warren resigns and the murders 'stop'. Why isn't that a clue?

[Harry D]

I'm sorry to come back to it, but if the Ripper did have a political agenda and was the author of the GSG, then why didn't he leave a message in Miller's Court? We're expected to believe that in the middle of a getaway he stopped in a stairwell to scribble a vague, ambiguous message on a wall, but when he had a whole room to himself and ample opportunity to make his big message... he didn't?

[Batman]

Aren't you mixing action and reaction?

Anderson, Warren and Abberline were nominated/transfer after Nichols' murder because she was the fourth prostitute killed in Whitechapel since the beginning of the year.

Anderson received an appointment on August 28th.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...5850/page/4632

Nichols was murdered on August 30th (technically early hours of next day but one can easily assume JtR was active within 48 hours of that appointment).

[SirJohnFalstaff]

anti semitism was already really strong in Whitechapel / Spitalfieds before the AoT. It just skyrocketed after Chapman.

Around the time of the double event, even the Times was talking about ritual jewish murders as a way to atone oneself for sleeping with a Christian woman.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

JtR reacted to Anderson's appointment with a murder.

Aren't you mixing action and reaction?

Anderson, Warren and Abberline were nominated/transfer after Nichols' murder because she was the fourth prostitute killed in Whitechapel since the beginning of the year.

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Interesting idea.

Of course, one must be aware of the fallacy, "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc."

Cheers.
LC

There is no doubt attributing causation where one only has correlation is wrong without there being more evidence. However accepting a pile of coincidences seems to be the alternative and that isn't very parsimonous and sits awkwardly with me.

[Batman]

Wouldn't it make more sense to use, "Lipski", in both cases though?

Yes, if both used the same medium, but one was done orally and the other was written.

Why not definitively tie the two occurrences together?

JtR may or may not have written the GSG, however, to say that it's placement was random because graffitti is everywhere just adds more 'coincidences' to this case where already a pile of 'coincidences' are being overlooked to make way for a 'Jewish' killer [Kozminski] explanation (although a good explanation, it doesn't fit here at all).

Even Fido relegates Stride as a non-ripper victim to make way for a Jewish killer. Simply put, if Schwartz saw JtR, JtR isn't a Jew because JtR is shouting anti-semetic slurs. Furthermore it means JtR was an anti-semite.

Why make such a vague reference if you're trying to convey such an (apparently) important message?

JtR didn't plan his attacks according to a political agenda. JtR is reacting to politics and the police though. I don't think his planning is beyond carrying a knife and package to carry body parts away in. He was opportunistic and spontanious. The coincidences of politics/policing are things he is reacting too. For example the social club next to Stride's murder would have been passing political/police news to those attending.

As for your scenario with Stride's killing, Stride was found in Dutfield's yard, where as Schwartz saw her outside. If the killer quickly dispatched her in the way you described, then she's fallen, throat cut, away from the yard, then been taken in to the yard (where her body was found) without leaving any evidence that she was moved. Assuming they've gone to all that effort, there's even less reason for the killer, if mutilation was desired, to then run away as fast as they can.

JtR takes big chances. Virtually performing his murders within feet of people who could have seen him. Stride was thrown onto the ground. Are we to say this is just another 'coincidence'? Or can we imagine after being thrown down, instead of strangling her there and then, he was seen by Schwartz and had to quickly get her out of sight where he then strangled and cut her throat before running off?

How many coincidences are in this thread with just a few posts alone? The likelyhood of these all being coincidences is slim.

Ted Bundy was heavily into politics.
Gacy was heavily into local politics.

In fact trying to separate out serial killers from political killers can be quite a task don't you think?

I still find the correlation between the murders starting and stopping and political/police issues to be glaring apparent and offer a parsimonous solution to many questions if included.

[lynn cates]

fallacy

Hello Batman. Interesting idea.

Of course, one must be aware of the fallacy, "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc."

Cheers.
LC

[Disco Stu]

Warren/police handling of the semetic communities in London.

On the night of the double murder we have not just 1 but 2 anti-semetic moments.

Schwartz is called "Lipski".

Goulston Street Graffito.

I believe Schwartz was not called Lipski but instead the killer tried to 'frame' a 'lipski' there and then.

I believe Stride suddenly realized her dilemma. Before she could scream help, the murderer had to silence her. He saw Schwartz at the same time. He knew he had to kill Stride or face identification. So cried out Lipski and then took out Stride with his signature MO. He then ran away. He wasn't disturbed by Diemschutz at all and had fled well before him (otherwise he would have had time to complete more of his MO).

Furthermore he tries to frame a 'Lipski' by writing the graffito or he knew where the graffito was and tossed the bloody rag from Eddowes there to cause more problems.

The political motivation is the failure of the government to stop semetic culture/people from 'destroying' london. If these prostitutes where known to have served some jews, JtR may have punished them for that while at the same time trying to make these series of murders an example of Jewish 'evil'.

Warren was clearly worried that such talk could literally bring riots again to the streets.

Regarding the anti-Semitic, "moments", there were probably hundreds of racial slurs made that night. Racially and politically motivated graffiti tags are said to have adorned walls throughout the East End. Were the GSG and the, "Lipski", call related to the murders? Possibly. Wouldn't it make more sense to use, "Lipski", in both cases though? If I'm trying to make a point, if I have a bee in my bonnet about something, I use the same phraseology to reinforce it. Why not definitively tie the two occurrences together? The same applies to Eddowes's murder and the GSG: Why make such a vague reference if you're trying to convey such an (apparently) important message?

As for your scenario with Stride's killing, Stride was found in Dutfield's yard, where as Schwartz saw her outside. If the killer quickly dispatched her in the way you described, then she's fallen, throat cut, away from the yard, then been taken in to the yard (where her body was found) without leaving any evidence that she was moved. Assuming they've gone to all that effort, there's even less reason for the killer, if mutilation was desired, to then run away as fast as they can.

[Batman]

I seem to recall that someone at the time (was it Abberline?) speculated that perhaps the ruffian was shouting "Lipski!" to an accomplice of that name.

Paul Begg believes that the 'accomplice' was another witness who was since identified and cleared based upon police statements and the coroner's inquest intro Stride. Begg suggests that the man corroborated what Schwartz reported seeing that night.