Summing Up And Verdict

[The Rookie Detective]

I agree, the theory that the Ripper may have observed others accessing Kelly's room by reaching through the window does imply that he probably spent a lot of time in the area and knew it well.

As I've mentioned previously, Henry Hanslope at one time lived in the room directly opposite Mary's room; namely room 11.

Hanslope raped his daughter, violently assaulted his mother and threatened to cut his wife's throat. He also had a penchant for walking around and pretending to be a police detective and had acting experience as a young man. He was 40 at the time of the murders and claimed to work as a market porter,; the same occupation given by the man who was stopped by police as he tried to leave Miller's Court on his way to get some milk. This man was never identified but said he was staying in room 3.

Was this Hanslope?

If it was, then he's arguably the prime suspect in the Kelly murder because we know he stayed in room 11 at some point in 1888.

He was violent, a compulsive liar, liked to walk around in disguise, and was sexually deviant and abusive towards his own 13 year old daughter.

Anyone who stayed in room 11 would have had a clear view of Kelly's window.

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis, anatomy and butchery knowledge were much more common in the 19th century than today (I remember a story about my Great Grandfather being told to go kill a chicken just after the war, he got bored of chasing and just swung the knife to good effect). My personal feeling would be a butcher would have the knife skills needed, a cotton merchant not likely. I have considered and even questioned the sleeping MJK scenario on these boards and wouldn’t rule out. However, as you said he’d observed others gaining entry - is that not local knowledge? The skill demonstrated for me was in the rapidity and silence of the killing, not necessarily the mutilation. For the killer I’d have thought the mutilation was the “fun part” that he wanted to enjoy, but until MJK he had to be willing to disappear on the smallest noise.

Paul

I agree, the theory that the Ripper may have observed others accessing Kelly's room by reaching through the window does imply that he probably spent a lot of time in the area and knew it well.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think this quote sums it up for everyone? In the annals of serial murder what this maniac did was still rare. I've learned alot about Victoria's England and it is fascinating.

My own observations just raise more questions.

Was he local? I'm not sure why a non local would choose Whitechapel if he didn't know it and its habits. He was a high risk taker and seemed to know police habits and methods. I'm not sure how else you could explain his escapes as if he were a ghost.

Was he single or married ? This killer destroyed the humanity of these women. He hated them possibly because he was dominated by them in real life. It's not clear to me that he hated women just for hates sake. He had a reason. He exerted power over his victims. I believe in real life he was living under female domination.

Was he gentile, Immigrant Jew, or anglicized Jew? This raises the question for me of why a local gentile would kill local gentile women in predominantly Jewish neighborhoods? Then leave clues at Jewish dwellings and possibly use a Jewish slur in the case of Schwartz right next to the Center of the Jewish Immigrant Socialist movement. The killer was trying very hard in my opinion to keep drawing attention to the Jewish Immigrant Class that Law Enforcement was fixated and stayed fixated on. Why would the killer draw attention to what he himself was? This leaves gentile or anglicized Jew as the likely killer IMO.

Appearance- the killer was ordinary in appearance. He looked like every other man of that time living in the poorer sections of London. If Shabby Genteel is to be believed than its possible he had more than one set of garments. The Rag Trade was centralized on Wentworth and Middlesex Streets so availability was not an issue for a local. Who would want to keep up appearances on a regular basis? A known business owner?
if George Hutchinson is to be believed then it's possible the killer dressed in his very best for the sole purpose of attracting Mary Kelly with " appearance of money". A red handkerchief if you please? Mary Kelly was a human carcass in the end.

Anatomical Knowledge- was Mary Tabrum a probing of a human? 39 stab wounds, overkill, in the areas that would become the mutilation focus of the killer. Human skin v Animal skin? He had to start somewhere? What kind of knife would I need? If the Author Patricia Cornwell is to be believed this killer just Ripped and pulled out organs. Yet Mary Kelly's mutilation indicates that this killer was using his time to explore the entire body. Including trying to remove skin ?The Doctors in this case were conflicted on the degree of knowledge but is it possible that their own training played a role here? They did not believe it was a medical man, maybe a medical student, possibly a slaughterman or butcher? They were definitely struggling to understand the Act of these murders. What might be of more interest is the cutting of throats and timing associated with the murders. Less than 10 minutes. With the exception of organs removal, Cornwall isn't far off the mark.

Physical Strength- this killer overpowered these women in almost total silence. Did he strangle them unconscious, lay them down, cut their throats and bleed them out? It appears so. These women were not healthy and none seemed to fight back. Is this why they were chosen? Weakness in strength? Would this require some forknowledge of how to render someone unconcious? Or just brute strength? The killer was successful in every case. This killer required some upper body strength to effect this if he did not use a garrot. There appears to be no proof he did. Did he then use a forearm? A person can be rendered unconscious in less than 10 seconds.

After 137 years many questions remain unanswered including the most important one..Who. what questions, if any, still need to be asked? Is the only real evidence the medical evidence? If so it would exist in Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. Does it tell us anything?

Sorry I’m late responding Patrick. So many questions as you’ve pointed out. Hutchinson is a good example. I’ve always wondered if he subconsciously exaggerated Kelly’s man’s level of ‘finery.’ If he was dressed better than Hutchinson, which seems likely, he might have looked like a toff but maybe he was just a local businessman who was better off than most? His watch for example, on closer examination, might have been a battered old thing that had been handed down by his great-grandfather. His astrakhan coat, seen in broad daylight, might have been shown to have seen much better days.

I just think that there’s very little that we can say that we know with anything like a near certainly. ‘Possibles’ yes, ‘probables’ yes, but near certainties… I’d stick with ‘he was a man.’

[The Rookie Detective]

"rapidity and silence"

As I have said several times; the killer's ability to achieve what he did, is indicative of a man who had some training in doing so; quite literally.

Criminals sent to ColdBath Fields prison in Clerkenwell were trained; albeit inadvertently, to repeatedly carry out intensive manual physical work and various other mundane tasks...in complete silence.

It was a form of punishment.

If the Ripper had spent some time in that prison, he would have been released with the necessary skill-set to carry out certain tasks in relative silence.


In other words; the killer was trained to work rapidly and silently.


Sounds familiar

[kjab3112]

Hi Lewis, anatomy and butchery knowledge were much more common in the 19th century than today (I remember a story about my Great Grandfather being told to go kill a chicken just after the war, he got bored of chasing and just swung the knife to good effect). My personal feeling would be a butcher would have the knife skills needed, a cotton merchant not likely. I have considered and even questioned the sleeping MJK scenario on these boards and wouldn’t rule out. However, as you said he’d observed others gaining entry - is that not local knowledge? The skill demonstrated for me was in the rapidity and silence of the killing, not necessarily the mutilation. For the killer I’d have thought the mutilation was the “fun part” that he wanted to enjoy, but until MJK he had to be willing to disappear on the smallest noise.

Paul

[Lewis C]

Anatomical knowledge - he demonstrated some anatomical knowledge as he could identify different organs. It should be remembered that this was a time when people would often kill or at least butcher their own meat. Given human organs and pig organs are similar in size and appearance, at least an amateur butchery knowledge would be enough.

So you're saying that he needed to have some anatomical knowledge, but most men had that, right? So if this is the case, we probably can't eliminate any suspets on these grounds, because any given suspect might have had anatomical knowledge. We could still say that if one was known to be a doctor or a butcher, we have more certainty about this knowledge.

Local? - he needed to blend in and not raise concerns. As the killings went on, the local prostitutes would’ve become more careful. I doubt that MJK, no matter how desperate, would’ve taken any old John back to her room. This suggests either a regular (I suspect these were questioned) or at least a known face - Hutchinson was almost certainly asked for money (why else mention it), was he being euphemistic when he said he gave her an occasional tanner?

I think it's at least a reasonable possibility that MJK's killer observed how others got into the room by reaching through the broken glass and unlocking the door, and he did the same while Kelly was asleep.

About the general comments about solving the case, I don't think we'll ever know the Ripper's identity, but we might in the years to come be able to eliminate certain possibilities, such as certain people that appear to be realistic suspects now will be seen to be not-so-realistic in the future.

[bonestrewn]

Gosh, no. I don't think it's an accepted Ripper trait, but it was a trait which a number of senior police officers and Robert Anderson for certain, believed to be absolutely certain of. Moving beyond that, the use of the phrase 'certain' suggests a particular group of Polish jews, not just any of the local jewish community, but a certain kind. Perhaps a social grouping or even perhaps, belonging to a gang or a mob.

Sean, thank you so much for elaborating! I see exactly what you mean now. If I remember correctly, Tom Wescott has suggested that the Ripper was embedded in criminal activity in the East End, as a member of a gang or someone with criminal connections (related to his theory on garrotting), rather than the classic lone killer archetype. I have to admit I don't know anything about Polish Jewish gangs in LVP East End, but now I want to find out more...

[Patrick Differ]

Surely there’s no point in having any interest in the case if we don’t want to know who did it Sean?

I think this quote sums it up for everyone? In the annals of serial murder what this maniac did was still rare. I've learned alot about Victoria's England and it is fascinating.

My own observations just raise more questions.

Was he local? I'm not sure why a non local would choose Whitechapel if he didn't know it and its habits. He was a high risk taker and seemed to know police habits and methods. I'm not sure how else you could explain his escapes as if he were a ghost.

Was he single or married ? This killer destroyed the humanity of these women. He hated them possibly because he was dominated by them in real life. It's not clear to me that he hated women just for hates sake. He had a reason. He exerted power over his victims. I believe in real life he was living under female domination.

Was he gentile, Immigrant Jew, or anglicized Jew? This raises the question for me of why a local gentile would kill local gentile women in predominantly Jewish neighborhoods? Then leave clues at Jewish dwellings and possibly use a Jewish slur in the case of Schwartz right next to the Center of the Jewish Immigrant Socialist movement. The killer was trying very hard in my opinion to keep drawing attention to the Jewish Immigrant Class that Law Enforcement was fixated and stayed fixated on. Why would the killer draw attention to what he himself was? This leaves gentile or anglicized Jew as the likely killer IMO.

Appearance- the killer was ordinary in appearance. He looked like every other man of that time living in the poorer sections of London. If Shabby Genteel is to be believed than its possible he had more than one set of garments. The Rag Trade was centralized on Wentworth and Middlesex Streets so availability was not an issue for a local. Who would want to keep up appearances on a regular basis? A known business owner?
if George Hutchinson is to be believed then it's possible the killer dressed in his very best for the sole purpose of attracting Mary Kelly with " appearance of money". A red handkerchief if you please? Mary Kelly was a human carcass in the end.

Anatomical Knowledge- was Mary Tabrum a probing of a human? 39 stab wounds, overkill, in the areas that would become the mutilation focus of the killer. Human skin v Animal skin? He had to start somewhere? What kind of knife would I need? If the Author Patricia Cornwell is to be believed this killer just Ripped and pulled out organs. Yet Mary Kelly's mutilation indicates that this killer was using his time to explore the entire body. Including trying to remove skin ?The Doctors in this case were conflicted on the degree of knowledge but is it possible that their own training played a role here? They did not believe it was a medical man, maybe a medical student, possibly a slaughterman or butcher? They were definitely struggling to understand the Act of these murders. What might be of more interest is the cutting of throats and timing associated with the murders. Less than 10 minutes. With the exception of organs removal, Cornwall isn't far off the mark.

Physical Strength- this killer overpowered these women in almost total silence. Did he strangle them unconscious, lay them down, cut their throats and bleed them out? It appears so. These women were not healthy and none seemed to fight back. Is this why they were chosen? Weakness in strength? Would this require some forknowledge of how to render someone unconcious? Or just brute strength? The killer was successful in every case. This killer required some upper body strength to effect this if he did not use a garrot. There appears to be no proof he did. Did he then use a forearm? A person can be rendered unconscious in less than 10 seconds.

After 137 years many questions remain unanswered including the most important one..Who. what questions, if any, still need to be asked? Is the only real evidence the medical evidence? If so it would exist in Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. Does it tell us anything?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I'm sure there are quite a few people who feel like Sean about the case.

The murders are interesting in so many wider contexts; the Victorian class system, history of the police force and origins of tabloid journalism to name just three off the top of my head.

For my part, I'm definitely drawn to the whodunit element, but I'm sure not everyone is.

I'd also posit that many people are initially drawn to the mystery, but then when they realise how slim the chances of solving it really are, branch out into other tangentially related interests.

It's kind of a ripperological rite of passage!

Hi Ms D,

I can totally understand Sean’s point of view. And as you say, there is a huge amount of interesting stuff not directly related to the case or just tangentially related. I certainly accept the ever-reducing likelihood of the case being solved but I live in hope (just about) that maybe something will turn up. I always hope that one day during our discussions on here someone will say “hold on, if x did so and so how could he have…” And we all stand amazed that no one had ever pointed this out before and that it leads toward a likely suspect. If it turned out to be Cross I’d be straight off to join a monastery.

[Ms Diddles]

Surely there’s no point in having any interest in the case if we don’t want to know who did it Sean?

Hi Herlock,

I'm sure there are quite a few people who feel like Sean about the case.

The murders are interesting in so many wider contexts; the Victorian class system, history of the police force and origins of tabloid journalism to name just three off the top of my head.

For my part, I'm definitely drawn to the whodunit element, but I'm sure not everyone is.

I'd also posit that many people are initially drawn to the mystery, but then when they realise how slim the chances of solving it really are, branch out into other tangentially related interests.

It's kind of a ripperological rite of passage!

[seanr]

Sean - would you mind clarifying your comment on "certain low-class Polish Jews"? Do you mean we should consider "Polish Jew" a given and accepted Ripper trait? Just want to make sure I understand!

Gosh, no. I don't think it's an accepted Ripper trait, but it was a trait which a number of senior police officers and Robert Anderson for certain, believed to be absolutely certain of. Moving beyond that, the use of the phrase 'certain' suggests a particular group of Polish jews, not just any of the local jewish community, but a certain kind. Perhaps a social grouping or even perhaps, belonging to a gang or a mob.

[Herlock Sholmes]

hi bone
yes so would i lol. in the past ive said single or dominated wife. so i agree with you .

You forgot…Barrister, teacher, cricketer.

[Abby Normal]

Abby - I would respectfully quibble with saying the Ripper was definitely single. Serial killers like BTK, Ted Bundy, and Israel Keyes all had successful long-term relationships. My understanding, as well, is that the "single" argument comes from the timing of the murders; that is, that JTR was not answerable to anybody at home, so could be out killing at wacky hours. But there were plenty of occupations in the East End that had these irregular or extremely early hours. In fact that's how multiple Ripper victims were found (Charles Cross finding Polly, John Davis finding Annie, not to mention the slaughtermen at work who came to see Polly, etc). And even if he didn't have such an occupation, serial killers seem to have a gift for making their loved ones just accept anything they say or do. Israel Keyes, for example, traveled frequently across the US to hunt victims and dispose of their remains, and would be gone for long periods of time on these trips; his girlfriend at the time of his capture seemingly accepted whatever excuse he gave.

Sean - would you mind clarifying your comment on "certain low-class Polish Jews"? Do you mean we should consider "Polish Jew" a given and accepted Ripper trait? Just want to make sure I understand!

hi bone
yes so would i lol. in the past ive said single or dominated wife. so i agree with you .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions (Abby, Sean, Paul and bonestrewn)

Though my initial point was to highlight how much we don’t know I certainly accept that we can apply ‘possibles’ and ‘probables’. So looking at the suggestions from Paul and Abby.

Age around 25-35 > I wouldn’t dispute this at all. It’s a very likely age range imo but I don’t think that any of us would eliminate a suspect if he was 5 years out either way?

Gentile > Numerically likely but apart from that I couldn’t personally be too sure.

Nationality English > Ditto

Local > I’ve always been a little wary of assuming the level of benefit from local knowledge but I certainly wouldn’t dispute that he was a local man. Paul’s point about Kelly is a fair one but the killer might have been a non-local who looked a bit better off. Or the way that he spoke might have won her trust. It’s perhaps also worth pointing out that she was in arrears with her rent and we have to wonder he far McCarthy’s patience stretched? Serial killers don’t usually kill ‘on their own doorsteps’ though.

So I certainly wouldn’t dismiss a local man but it’s fair to say that I don’t place as much weight on it as (probably) most do.

Anatomical Knowledge > It seems likely to me but, without having medical knowledge myself, I can’t really state what level and with any level of confidence.

Employed > I don’t know. Maybe he was but I can’t see he we could deduce that with confidence.

Frequented bars, drinker, knew prostitutes > Very possible imo. But he may have entered the area and picked up his victims in the street.

Description > I can certainly see and accept possibles from the various descriptions but I’m certainly wary of these.


All the points made on here could be absolutely correct but I don’t have a great level of confidence. With no great confidence I’d say…


Male
British/English
25-35
Lived just outside Whitechapel
Anatomical knowledge
Fairly average looking (moustache a possible)
Unsure about employment

[bonestrewn]

Abby - I would respectfully quibble with saying the Ripper was definitely single. Serial killers like BTK, Ted Bundy, and Israel Keyes all had successful long-term relationships. My understanding, as well, is that the "single" argument comes from the timing of the murders; that is, that JTR was not answerable to anybody at home, so could be out killing at wacky hours. But there were plenty of occupations in the East End that had these irregular or extremely early hours. In fact that's how multiple Ripper victims were found (Charles Cross finding Polly, John Davis finding Annie, not to mention the slaughtermen at work who came to see Polly, etc). And even if he didn't have such an occupation, serial killers seem to have a gift for making their loved ones just accept anything they say or do. Israel Keyes, for example, traveled frequently across the US to hunt victims and dispose of their remains, and would be gone for long periods of time on these trips; his girlfriend at the time of his capture seemingly accepted whatever excuse he gave.

Sean - would you mind clarifying your comment on "certain low-class Polish Jews"? Do you mean we should consider "Polish Jew" a given and accepted Ripper trait? Just want to make sure I understand!