What are the chances of….?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Related to Al Bundy's Eyes post above could they both (JtR and Eddows) been heading to the soliciting area around St Boltophs? It possible that the murder was heading there from Berner Street, avoiding the the main thoroughfares. Their meeting in Mitre Square just being an unfortunate coincidence.

Could be Tristan. Or could Eddowes have been heading their via Millers Court. My sense of direction isn’t good.

[etenguy]

Hi E10,

I seem to recall nearby St Botolphs was an area for soliciting.
I don't imagine Mitre Square was used for soliciting, in that it would cease to be a secluded area to conduct business if punters were loitering around. Certainly with Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes I can't realistically see anything other than them acquiring a customer and leading them to a secluded spot.

Hi Al Bundy's eyes

I agree with you, and heading to a quiet spot seems a logical action in the circumstances,

The time frame for another person other than Lawendes man is vanishingly small, if the couple sighted was Eddowes and a man, he's odds on the killer. You wouldn't hang him on that alone though.

Yes, indeed - tantalizingly close to being certain but still enough doubt that an alternative is possible.

[Losmandris]

But couldn’t she have been crossing Mitre Square on the way to somewhere though?

Related to Al Bundy's Eyes post above could they both (JtR and Eddows) been heading to the soliciting area around St Boltophs? It possible that the murder was heading there from Berner Street, avoiding the the main thoroughfares. Their meeting in Mitre Square just being an unfortunate coincidence.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Exactly Eten. We can’t know anything for certain. I agree with most people that Lawende’s man is probably likeliest to have been the killer but my suggestion (and that’s all that it was) can’t be impossible. I don’t even think that it’s particular unlikely. Just less likely than the accepted explanation.

[etenguy]

What's wrong with her following the man who had obviously indicated that he wanted business and whose chest she was resting her hand on?

Absolutely nothing - I think that is the most likely scenario - however, we are speculating here about alternatives and testing our confidence in the generally accepted theory.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Indeed - or even possibly she followed a man into the square who may have indicated he wanted business.

What's wrong with her following the man who had obviously indicated that he wanted business and whose chest she was resting her hand on?

[etenguy]

Because people take shortcuts if they are aware of them.

Indeed - or even possibly she followed a man into the square who may have indicated he wanted business.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I did indeed respond to that point, but not to you directly:


And why would Eddowes have gone through deserted Mitre Square at about 1.30 a.m. in order to get to another place?

Is she not much more likely to have gone down streets?

(# 28)

Because people take shortcuts if they are aware of them.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The only time that you responded to me on this thread was on the subject of the sailor. Not on the actual thread topic. You made a comment about the topic in a response to Jeff in the next post where you claimed your opinion as fact.

“It is obvious that Eddowes took the murderer to the darkest part of the Square, as Chapman took him into a dark yard, and Stride took him into another dark yard.”

This is a possibility. Probably the likeliest one. But it’s not a certainty.

I did indeed respond to that point, but not to you directly:


And why would Eddowes have gone through deserted Mitre Square at about 1.30 a.m. in order to get to another place?

Is she not much more likely to have gone down streets?

(# 28)

[Herlock Sholmes]

I had read your suggestion.

I was not responding to it that time.

I responded to it elsewhere.

The only time that you responded to me on this thread was on the subject of the sailor. Not on the actual thread topic. You made a comment about the topic in a response to Jeff in the next post where you claimed your opinion as fact.

“It is obvious that Eddowes took the murderer to the darkest part of the Square, as Chapman took him into a dark yard, and Stride took him into another dark yard.”

This is a possibility. Probably the likeliest one. But it’s not a certainty.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If you’d read my response you’d have seen that my suggestion didn’t involve Eddowes waiting in Mitre Square for a prospective customer. I merely suggested the possibility that she could passed through Mitre Square on the way to some unknown destination and the ripper was also crossing the square from one of the other two entrances.

I had read your suggestion.

I was not responding to it that time.

I responded to it elsewhere.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree.

How long would Eddowes have waited in the Square for a prospective customer to appear, knowing that within the next ten minutes or so a policeman would enter the Square?

If you’d read my response you’d have seen that my suggestion didn’t involve Eddowes waiting in Mitre Square for a prospective customer. I merely suggested the possibility that she could passed through Mitre Square on the way to some unknown destination and the ripper was also crossing the square from one of the other two entrances.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I agree, but to be fair, Lawende didn't identify Eddowes either. He stated that her clothes looked like those worn by the woman he saw.

I look at what Eddowes might have done when she was released from the lockup that night. She could have been expected to go home, but was observed to head in the opposite direction. She might have decided to look for a client around Mitre Square, or she might have decided to return to where she was arrested earlier in the evening, perhaps to rendezvous with a man that she had been with earlier. Given that she claimed to know the identity of the ripper and she may have had blackmail on her mind, I lean slightly towards the latter. But I also take your point that said couple could also have been the CPC couple.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

True, though I suppose it could be viewed as identifying her by her clothing, but we are getting into playing with semantics here. That aside, I recognize that Lawende's "identification" is a far cry from making a sure thing that the CPC included Eddowes.

While I don't mean to suggest I think this must have happened, I am inclined to think Eddowes may have gone to St. B's church as that was supposedly a location where prostitutes would congregate, and is a location that would also fit with the direction she headed when released. But, perhaps she did go back to where she was arrested, maybe in the hopes to find a pub open "after hours", which I'm sure happened then as it does now.

Personally, I doubt she went to meet someone specific that she was with earlier, and certainly not someone she was blackmailing. Given she was arrested, there was no way for her to know when she would be released. Also, there is no indication that there was a man with her at the time of her arrest. So, if she had been with someone earlier, but they separated, why would they arrange to meet back at 1 to 1:30ish, after the pubs had closed - and wasn't she lucky to be released in time to do that. There is no indication she tried to convince the police to let her out earlier for some pre-arranged meeting, so as far as I can see there is nothing to suggest she planned to meet someone specifically. I believe she had gone hopping before the murders, or maybe after Nichols and before Chapman? Either way, it seems unlikely she could have an idea as to who it was. But, let's say she did have an idea of who JtR was then it follows that idea must have formulated while hopping, and no doubt due to discussions with Kelly. As such, I'm sure Kelly would have been aware of her notions and would have given them to the police (there were private rewards he could have claimed after all). Moreover, if she was blackmailing someone, she would not meet them alone, at night, and go to a secluded location like Mitre Square with them. That just wouldn't make any sense, given what she suspects this person of doing. Obviously it is physically possible, but the entire blackmail line seems to me to require taking every unlikely turn possible in order to get there.

I rather suspect that Eddowes meeting with JtR was, like all the others, random. He was out looking for a victim, and she, unfortunately, crossed paths with him at a time when she was particularly vulnerable (still under the influence of booze, and desperate for money).

- Jeff

[Lewis C]

Hi Jeff,

I agree, but to be fair, Lawende didn't identify Eddowes either. He stated that her clothes looked like those worn by the woman he saw.

I look at what Eddowes might have done when she was released from the lockup that night. She could have been expected to go home, but was observed to head in the opposite direction. She might have decided to look for a client around Mitre Square, or she might have decided to return to where she was arrested earlier in the evening, perhaps to rendezvous with a man that she had been with earlier. Given that she claimed to know the identity of the ripper and she may have had blackmail on her mind, I lean slightly towards the latter. But I also take your point that said couple could also have been the CPC couple.

Cheers, George

Are you saying that you lean toward the idea that she knew JtR's identity, and went to Mitre Square to meet with him for the purpose of blackmailing him? If so, I doubt that any woman would have been that reckless.

[GBinOz]

The watchboy does say he saw a man and woman, but of course the woman is never identified by the watchboy as being Eddowes, so it could be something innocent like a man walking his fiancé home, but because they headed towards Mitre Square it sounds sinister. It is still an interesting addition to think about though. Thanks for the reminder.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I agree, but to be fair, Lawende didn't identify Eddowes either. He stated that her clothes looked like those worn by the woman he saw.

I look at what Eddowes might have done when she was released from the lockup that night. She could have been expected to go home, but was observed to head in the opposite direction. She might have decided to look for a client around Mitre Square, or she might have decided to return to where she was arrested earlier in the evening, perhaps to rendezvous with a man that she had been with earlier. Given that she claimed to know the identity of the ripper and she may have had blackmail on her mind, I lean slightly towards the latter. But I also take your point that said couple could also have been the CPC couple.

Cheers, George