Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A Victorian Apron Full of Questions...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • A Victorian Apron Full of Questions...

    I started my Ripper journey by binge listening to the Rippercast, virtually walking the streets - foot by foot - on Google Maps, and carefully dissecting the book, The London of Jack the Ripper: Then and Now by Philip Hutchinson and Robert Clack. With this grand triad of info, I have some questions. Maybe some of you learned folks can supply me with answers or better research ways of examining these issues and coming to estimated conclusions. Here goes. Answer all. Answer some. Answer none. Try and not rip the Messenger, i.e. me. ;-)

    1) Goulston Street Graffito - why is Jack automatically carrying chalk? (Am I to assume he's created graffiti before? Why? Is he carrying chalk used on price signs because he was a Petticoat Lane merchant? There's not a lot to convince me here - time, purpose, risk vs reward - that the "Juwes" graffito was Jack's.)

    2) Is there somewhere a documented/ complete list of Mary Kelly's room? Were Joe Barnett's clay pipe and ginger beer bottles documented?

    3) Would Jack know where/when he would have crossed from Met police jurisdiction into City police, in Miter Square?

    4) Is the bloody rag from Goulston Street still in existence? And if so, has a DNA sequence ever been found? If not, do we know why not?

    5) Does anyone else see the uncanny resemblance to Annie Chapman and Martha Tabram?

    6) NC5 - Emma Smith - could she have been lying about a gang to cover up the ID of a single attacker?

    7) Polly couldn't be cold within the minutes before Robert Paul came up to Cross/Lechmere? (1.5 degrees loss/hour, hands may have been cold prior death)

    8) Could this be the serial killer's signature? (Left hand on chest/torso? Head facing left? Chapman, Eddowes, Stride, Kelly) Any ideas as to its meaning?

    9) Why are we assuming that Jack did his ripping in the dark? Light source, anyone?

    10) Bucks Row/Durward - although the street is fairly straight, it's a long way from the end of Bucks at Brady St to Nichols' body. I checked. A Bobby could have walked by that end and saw nothing in that dark. How could PC Neil have heard PC Thain passing by on Brady St? Was it quieter back then that you could hear footsteps? And how would Neil know it's a Bobby?

    11) if Stride was seen at 34 Settles, Bricklayer's Arms, why would she buy grapes at 44 Berner (Henriques)Street when located at 40? That's backtracking. Chalk up to embellishing/mistaken witness?

    12) As per Rippercast, Oh Dear Boss: The Ripper Had All The Luck Jun 24 2018 - I disagree. there was no going home to clean up. PC Long didn't see the rag. Jack dropped it, then went home, my guess Middlesex or thereabouts if you geoprofile a location and/or the street name, symbolic meaning for Jack?. He did not rush/flee at/from any scene. Sociopaths see themselves as righteous; therefore, destined to succeed in their minds, ergo, no need to hurry. Your thoughts?

    13) Steve Blomer on July 21, 2019, podcast Inside Buck's Row - is 100% right. PC Mizen doesn't do anything wrong. Car men don't say Polly was attacked. No protocol breach needed as per an emergency. There is no conspiracy here. Charles Cross (Lechmere) is not the perp. This is a non suspect. Your thoughts?

    14) Red handkerchief - Eddowes - around man's neck at Church passage, is it Mary who loses hers and is given a red one by a man? Is this a repeating object? What can it say about the perp?

    15) What if Jack did voluntarily stop after Kelly? What if he was carrying out an art form only he could appreciate and Kelly was his magnum opus? Similar M.O. to the Black Dahlia killer?

    16) Clay pipe repeat - Barnett, stranger at Stride scene - how do we know these are clay pipes?

    17) Ginger beer bottle letter reference - is this a slip up on Jack's part? or a red herring he's feeding us?Click image for larger version

Name:	Questions Cartoon.jpg
Views:	587
Size:	123.7 KB
ID:	796717
    "We do not remember days, we remember moments." ~ Cesare Pavese

    Cheers!

    Books by BJ Thompson
    Author - www.booksbybjthompson.com
    Email - barbara@booksbybjthompson.com

  • #2
    Originally posted by BooksbyBJThompson View Post
    I started my Ripper journey by binge listening to the Rippercast, virtually walking the streets - foot by foot - on Google Maps, and carefully dissecting the book, The London of Jack the Ripper: Then and Now by Philip Hutchinson and Robert Clack. With this grand triad of info, I have some questions. Maybe some of you learned folks can supply me with answers or better research ways of examining these issues and coming to estimated conclusions. Here goes. Answer all. Answer some. Answer none. Try and not rip the Messenger, i.e. me. ;-)

    1) Goulston Street Graffito - why is Jack automatically carrying chalk? (Am I to assume he's created graffiti before? Why? Is he carrying chalk used on price signs because he was a Petticoat Lane merchant? There's not a lot to convince me here - time, purpose, risk vs reward - that the "Juwes" graffito was Jack's.)

    2) Is there somewhere a documented/ complete list of Mary Kelly's room? Were Joe Barnett's clay pipe and ginger beer bottles documented?

    3) Would Jack know where/when he would have crossed from Met police jurisdiction into City police, in Miter Square?

    4) Is the bloody rag from Goulston Street still in existence? And if so, has a DNA sequence ever been found? If not, do we know why not?

    5) Does anyone else see the uncanny resemblance to Annie Chapman and Martha Tabram?

    6) NC5 - Emma Smith - could she have been lying about a gang to cover up the ID of a single attacker?

    7) Polly couldn't be cold within the minutes before Robert Paul came up to Cross/Lechmere? (1.5 degrees loss/hour, hands may have been cold prior death)

    8) Could this be the serial killer's signature? (Left hand on chest/torso? Head facing left? Chapman, Eddowes, Stride, Kelly) Any ideas as to its meaning?

    9) Why are we assuming that Jack did his ripping in the dark? Light source, anyone?

    10) Bucks Row/Durward - although the street is fairly straight, it's a long way from the end of Bucks at Brady St to Nichols' body. I checked. A Bobby could have walked by that end and saw nothing in that dark. How could PC Neil have heard PC Thain passing by on Brady St? Was it quieter back then that you could hear footsteps? And how would Neil know it's a Bobby?

    11) if Stride was seen at 34 Settles, Bricklayer's Arms, why would she buy grapes at 44 Berner (Henriques)Street when located at 40? That's backtracking. Chalk up to embellishing/mistaken witness?

    12) As per Rippercast, Oh Dear Boss: The Ripper Had All The Luck Jun 24 2018 - I disagree. there was no going home to clean up. PC Long didn't see the rag. Jack dropped it, then went home, my guess Middlesex or thereabouts if you geoprofile a location and/or the street name, symbolic meaning for Jack?. He did not rush/flee at/from any scene. Sociopaths see themselves as righteous; therefore, destined to succeed in their minds, ergo, no need to hurry. Your thoughts?

    13) Steve Blomer on July 21, 2019, podcast Inside Buck's Row - is 100% right. PC Mizen doesn't do anything wrong. Car men don't say Polly was attacked. No protocol breach needed as per an emergency. There is no conspiracy here. Charles Cross (Lechmere) is not the perp. This is a non suspect. Your thoughts?

    14) Red handkerchief - Eddowes - around man's neck at Church passage, is it Mary who loses hers and is given a red one by a man? Is this a repeating object? What can it say about the perp?

    15) What if Jack did voluntarily stop after Kelly? What if he was carrying out an art form only he could appreciate and Kelly was his magnum opus? Similar M.O. to the Black Dahlia killer?

    16) Clay pipe repeat - Barnett, stranger at Stride scene - how do we know these are clay pipes?

    17) Ginger beer bottle letter reference - is this a slip up on Jack's part? or a red herring he's feeding us?
    Thanks for your post, I 'll try to give some quick answers. There are others who are more expert than me, but for a start:

    1. we don't know. If Jack wrote the graffito, then he carried chalk. Since chalk graffiti was commonplace, apparently many people were in the custom of carrying chalk, making it less unusual for Jack to do so also. Chalk was undoubtedly used in many professions for making quick notes, signs, lines etc. on various materials - blackboards, signs, masonry, crates etc.

    2. I think there might be a complete list of everything mentioned in MJK's room somewhere around here, but if you ask whether one was made at the time, the answer is no. Some things are mentioned in different sources, and some things visible in the crime scene photo are not mentioned at all, I believe, e.g. a wash basin under the bed goes unmentioned by both police and reporters, I think.

    3. Unknown - I tend to believe yes, he would.

    4. No. It is not, because lots of evidence and files have been discarded (i.e. deemed to have no further value) or unintentionally lost and discarded over the years.

    5. No. Slight resemblance, yes, uncanny, no.

    6. She could, but given that while dying she told the same story to two independent witnesses, why would she?

    8. I don't think so. Chapman was facing right, for instance, Eddowes' left arm was extended. So, no pattern.

    9. A light source would not have been necessary, and would make it much more likely to be noticed and caught.

    10. Bobbys carried lanterns and were therefore visible at distances.

    11. Why do people sometimes go to a shop that is not immediately adjacent to their home? Stride was accompanied by a gentleman, according to the witness, so perhaps he offered her grapes or she asked for some and they consequently had to go to only grapevendor around.

    12. I disagree. Long stated the rag was not there earlier, that means it was not.

    13. I agree, complete nonsuspect.

    14. Unknown, but the red of course invites speculation. I believe the kerchief in Eddowes' case was merely "reddish", though, so perhaps not so similar.

    15. What if - well, it's unknown. I believe framing the killing in terms reminiscent of late 20th century fascination with serial killers is ultimately misleading.

    16. I'm not sure the pipe smoking man in Stride's case had a clay pipe? At any rate, clay pipes were very common because they were cheap. There's also Alice McKenzie if you want to explore the clay pipe motif

    17. Unknown - could be, I consider it unlikely. I believe ginger beer bottles were often reused, as they were some of the cheaper, yet sturdy, resuable and commonly available bottles, but I cannot remember now where I read it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Kattrup -- I don't have any major disagreements with your answers, but I'm not so sure about #2.

      Abberline stated at the Kelly inquest that he did make an inventory of the room's contents, but this list has apparently gone missing from the MEPO files.

      Inspector Frederick Abberline: "I agree with the medical evidence as to the condition of the room. I subsequently took an inventory of the contents of the room. There were traces of a large fire having been kept up in the grate, so much so that it had melted the spout of a kettle off."

      -- Daily Telegraph, 13 November 1888.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
        Hi Kattrup -- I don't have any major disagreements with your answers, but I'm not so sure about #2.

        Abberline stated at the Kelly inquest that he did make an inventory of the room's contents, but this list has apparently gone missing from the MEPO files.

        Inspector Frederick Abberline: "I agree with the medical evidence as to the condition of the room. I subsequently took an inventory of the contents of the room. There were traces of a large fire having been kept up in the grate, so much so that it had melted the spout of a kettle off."

        -- Daily Telegraph, 13 November 1888.
        Thank you RJ, you are of course correct, I'd overlooked Abberline's statement. An inventory was actually made. However, as you say it has apparently not survived.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by BooksbyBJThompson View Post
          I started my Ripper journey by binge listening to the Rippercast, virtually walking the streets - foot by foot - on Google Maps, and carefully dissecting the book, The London of Jack the Ripper: Then and Now by Philip Hutchinson and Robert Clack. With this grand triad of info, I have some questions. Maybe some of you learned folks can supply me with answers or better research ways of examining these issues and coming to estimated conclusions. Here goes. Answer all. Answer some. Answer none. Try and not rip the Messenger, i.e. me. ;-)

          1) Goulston Street Graffito - why is Jack automatically carrying chalk? (Am I to assume he's created graffiti before? Why? Is he carrying chalk used on price signs because he was a Petticoat Lane merchant? There's not a lot to convince me here - time, purpose, risk vs reward - that the "Juwes" graffito was Jack's.)

          2) Is there somewhere a documented/ complete list of Mary Kelly's room? Were Joe Barnett's clay pipe and ginger beer bottles documented?

          3) Would Jack know where/when he would have crossed from Met police jurisdiction into City police, in Miter Square?

          4) Is the bloody rag from Goulston Street still in existence? And if so, has a DNA sequence ever been found? If not, do we know why not?

          5) Does anyone else see the uncanny resemblance to Annie Chapman and Martha Tabram?

          6) NC5 - Emma Smith - could she have been lying about a gang to cover up the ID of a single attacker?

          7) Polly couldn't be cold within the minutes before Robert Paul came up to Cross/Lechmere? (1.5 degrees loss/hour, hands may have been cold prior death)

          8) Could this be the serial killer's signature? (Left hand on chest/torso? Head facing left? Chapman, Eddowes, Stride, Kelly) Any ideas as to its meaning?

          9) Why are we assuming that Jack did his ripping in the dark? Light source, anyone?

          10) Bucks Row/Durward - although the street is fairly straight, it's a long way from the end of Bucks at Brady St to Nichols' body. I checked. A Bobby could have walked by that end and saw nothing in that dark. How could PC Neil have heard PC Thain passing by on Brady St? Was it quieter back then that you could hear footsteps? And how would Neil know it's a Bobby?

          11) if Stride was seen at 34 Settles, Bricklayer's Arms, why would she buy grapes at 44 Berner (Henriques)Street when located at 40? That's backtracking. Chalk up to embellishing/mistaken witness?

          12) As per Rippercast, Oh Dear Boss: The Ripper Had All The Luck Jun 24 2018 - I disagree. there was no going home to clean up. PC Long didn't see the rag. Jack dropped it, then went home, my guess Middlesex or thereabouts if you geoprofile a location and/or the street name, symbolic meaning for Jack?. He did not rush/flee at/from any scene. Sociopaths see themselves as righteous; therefore, destined to succeed in their minds, ergo, no need to hurry. Your thoughts?

          13) Steve Blomer on July 21, 2019, podcast Inside Buck's Row - is 100% right. PC Mizen doesn't do anything wrong. Car men don't say Polly was attacked. No protocol breach needed as per an emergency. There is no conspiracy here. Charles Cross (Lechmere) is not the perp. This is a non suspect. Your thoughts?

          14) Red handkerchief - Eddowes - around man's neck at Church passage, is it Mary who loses hers and is given a red one by a man? Is this a repeating object? What can it say about the perp?

          15) What if Jack did voluntarily stop after Kelly? What if he was carrying out an art form only he could appreciate and Kelly was his magnum opus? Similar M.O. to the Black Dahlia killer?

          16) Clay pipe repeat - Barnett, stranger at Stride scene - how do we know these are clay pipes?

          17) Ginger beer bottle letter reference - is this a slip up on Jack's part? or a red herring he's feeding us?

          First and foremost (before I forget!) welcome to Casebook.

          Broadly speaking I agree with Kattrup. Where I tend to disagree (and agree with you) is in (12). Pc Alfred Long says the apron piece wasn't there earlier. He may have been telling the truth or, alternatively, he may have been reluctant to admit that he was less than diligent earlier in the night. Opinions differ as to the reliability of the various witnesses as I'm sure you know. My take on Long is this. He was an 'A' Division officer seconded to 'H' Division. When required to lend officers to assist another Division did a Divisional Commander send his best officers or those he would miss least? In my experience (30 years) the latter - and understandably so. Long was subsequently dismissed from the Metropolitan Police for being "Drunk on Duty" (not just drinking, but drunk). He may have been truthful in his evidence of course, but he was clearly less diligent than some of his colleagues and his evidence should be viewed in that light IMHO.
          Last edited by Bridewell; 10-04-2022, 07:43 PM.
          "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

            Thanks for your post, I 'll try to give some quick answers. There are others who are more expert than me, but for a start:

            1. we don't know. If Jack wrote the graffito, then he carried chalk. Since chalk graffiti was commonplace, apparently many people were in the custom of carrying chalk, making it less unusual for Jack to do so also. Chalk was undoubtedly used in many professions for making quick notes, signs, lines etc. on various materials - blackboards, signs, masonry, crates etc.

            2. I think there might be a complete list of everything mentioned in MJK's room somewhere around here, but if you ask whether one was made at the time, the answer is no. Some things are mentioned in different sources, and some things visible in the crime scene photo are not mentioned at all, I believe, e.g. a wash basin under the bed goes unmentioned by both police and reporters, I think.

            3. Unknown - I tend to believe yes, he would.

            4. No. It is not, because lots of evidence and files have been discarded (i.e. deemed to have no further value) or unintentionally lost and discarded over the years.

            5. No. Slight resemblance, yes, uncanny, no.

            6. She could, but given that while dying she told the same story to two independent witnesses, why would she?

            8. I don't think so. Chapman was facing right, for instance, Eddowes' left arm was extended. So, no pattern.

            9. A light source would not have been necessary, and would make it much more likely to be noticed and caught.

            10. Bobbys carried lanterns and were therefore visible at distances.

            11. Why do people sometimes go to a shop that is not immediately adjacent to their home? Stride was accompanied by a gentleman, according to the witness, so perhaps he offered her grapes or she asked for some and they consequently had to go to only grapevendor around.

            12. I disagree. Long stated the rag was not there earlier, that means it was not.

            13. I agree, complete nonsuspect.

            14. Unknown, but the red of course invites speculation. I believe the kerchief in Eddowes' case was merely "reddish", though, so perhaps not so similar.

            15. What if - well, it's unknown. I believe framing the killing in terms reminiscent of late 20th century fascination with serial killers is ultimately misleading.

            16. I'm not sure the pipe smoking man in Stride's case had a clay pipe? At any rate, clay pipes were very common because they were cheap. There's also Alice McKenzie if you want to explore the clay pipe motif

            17. Unknown - could be, I consider it unlikely. I believe ginger beer bottles were often reused, as they were some of the cheaper, yet sturdy, resuable and commonly available bottles, but I cannot remember now where I read it.
            Thank you, Kattrup, for all that great insight!
            "We do not remember days, we remember moments." ~ Cesare Pavese

            Cheers!

            Books by BJ Thompson
            Author - www.booksbybjthompson.com
            Email - barbara@booksbybjthompson.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bridewell View Post


              First and foremost (before I forget!) welcome to Casebook.

              Broadly speaking I agree with Kattrup. Where I tend to disagree (and agree with you) is in (12). Pc Alfred Long says the apron piece wasn't there earlier. He may have been telling the truth or, alternatively, he may have been reluctant to admit that he was less than diligent earlier in the night. Opinions differ as to the reliability of the various witnesses as I'm sure you know. My take on Long is this. He was an 'A' Division officer seconded to 'H' Division. When required to lend officers to assist another Division did a Divisional Commander send his best officers or those he would miss least? In my experience (30 years) the latter - and understandably so. Long was subsequently dismissed from the Metropolitan Police for being "Drunk on Duty" (not just drinking, but drunk). He may have been truthful in his evidence of course, but he was clearly less diligent than some of his colleagues and his evidence should be viewed in that light IMHO.
              Thank you for that welcome!
              I guess it all comes down to lighting, or lack thereof, and the exact placement of the cloth.
              My guess is it was NOT there on Long's first go around unless it was balled up into a corner or the sparse lighting at either ends of the street just didn't translate to make that apron glow enough to be noticed.
              Being a drunk wont necessarily hamper a cops observational skills. Long wasnt drunk that night, I assume, so odds are that cloth wasn't initially there.
              "We do not remember days, we remember moments." ~ Cesare Pavese

              Cheers!

              Books by BJ Thompson
              Author - www.booksbybjthompson.com
              Email - barbara@booksbybjthompson.com

              Comment


              • #8
                If any of those questions could be answered,which one would be an element of the crime that would be crucial to a prosecution?

                Comment


                • #9
                  1} GSG.Handwriting and his height.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BooksbyBJThompson View Post

                    Thank you, Kattrup, for all that great insight!
                    You're welcome. I see that I missed #7: 7) Polly couldn't be cold within the minutes before Robert Paul came up to Cross/Lechmere? (1.5 degrees loss/hour, hands may have been cold prior death)

                    I disagree, not sure why you mean she could not feel cold? besides, she wasn't cold: "I felt her arm, which was quite warm, from the joints upwards." "Her hands and wrists were cold, but the body and lower extremities were warm"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Interesting questions.

                      My answer to 3. would be: Only if he was very familiar with the location in question. The closest City/Met boundary to Mitre Square was near Heydon Square, I believe. A suspect with a connection to that location might be worth looking at.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by harry View Post
                        If any of those questions could be answered,which one would be an element of the crime that would be crucial to a prosecution?
                        To my mind, a signature, that could tie all the kills together, and geoprofiling, if we could narrow it down to a street or two and check census records, that would place the defendent at or near the scenes of crimes, barring a concrete alibi.
                        "We do not remember days, we remember moments." ~ Cesare Pavese

                        Cheers!

                        Books by BJ Thompson
                        Author - www.booksbybjthompson.com
                        Email - barbara@booksbybjthompson.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                          Interesting questions.

                          My answer to 3. would be: Only if he was very familiar with the location in question. The closest City/Met boundary to Mitre Square was near Heydon Square, I believe. A suspect with a connection to that location might be worth looking at.
                          Were there residential block around Heydon, do you know?
                          "We do not remember days, we remember moments." ~ Cesare Pavese

                          Cheers!

                          Books by BJ Thompson
                          Author - www.booksbybjthompson.com
                          Email - barbara@booksbybjthompson.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

                            You're welcome. I see that I missed #7: 7) Polly couldn't be cold within the minutes before Robert Paul came up to Cross/Lechmere? (1.5 degrees loss/hour, hands may have been cold prior death)

                            I disagree, not sure why you mean she could not feel cold? besides, she wasn't cold: "I felt her arm, which was quite warm, from the joints upwards." "Her hands and wrists were cold, but the body and lower extremities were warm"
                            Thanks for clarifying. I thought I had read or listened to another statement where she was said to be cold, not merely on her hands. I might have been mistaken.
                            "We do not remember days, we remember moments." ~ Cesare Pavese

                            Cheers!

                            Books by BJ Thompson
                            Author - www.booksbybjthompson.com
                            Email - barbara@booksbybjthompson.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DJA View Post
                              1} GSG.Handwriting and his height.
                              Could you further explain. I'm not sure I understand your response, vis a vis if Jack wrote the graffito.
                              "We do not remember days, we remember moments." ~ Cesare Pavese

                              Cheers!

                              Books by BJ Thompson
                              Author - www.booksbybjthompson.com
                              Email - barbara@booksbybjthompson.com

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X