What 5 Questions Would You Like Answered?

[Ally]

Hello Ally. Thanks.

"More than likely, prostitution."

Fresh out of gaol?

Why not? She had no money, she needed money. Why would "fresh out of jail" deter her? I could, if you like, link you to three different stories of criminals who were picked up committing crimes after having just been released from prison for serious time, much less a couple hours in the drunk tank.

". . . however, she somehow earned enough to get drunk between leaving Kelly and being arrested. . . "

Not necessarily. Could have been bought for her.

...

Indeed. But under what circumstances would one give another money? Many, perhaps?

Cheers.
LC

So you think it is more likely that some random guy, purely out of the goodness of his heart decided to buy her alcohol? Purely altruism operating there?

[Colin Roberts]

Very well. I think she had tried and failed early in the game.

Would she have said "no," however, to someone whom she thought were asking?

Probably not, Lynn!

And I would think that neither Stride nor Eddowes would have said "no", in similar circumstances.

It isn't always the seller that makes the approach.

[Ally]

Hello (again) Ally.

"Long saw Chapman wide-awake and soliciting at around 5:30. . ."

Long, I think, saw Chapman around 5.15. She may well have been (I think WAS) asked for something. She thought sex; she said yes.

Maybe not STRICTLY soliciting? But I think a transaction--of some sort--was occurring.

Cheers.
LC

According to Long's testimony she saw her at 5:30 and was certain of the time as the clock chimed as she rounded the corner. Regardless, she clearly saw her soliciting prior to her death which means she was no doubt soliciting when she encountered her murderer.

From her inquest testimony:

Mrs. Elizabeth Long said: I live in Church-row, Whitechapel, and my husband, James Long, is a cart minder. On Saturday, Sept. 8, about half past five o'clock in the morning, I was passing down Hanbury-street, from home, on my way to Spitalfields Market. I knew the time, because I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street. I passed 29, Hanbury-street.

"Maybe not strictly soliciting"? What was she being asked for, a breath mint??

[lynn cates]

quid pro quo

Hello Ally. Thanks.

"So you think it is more likely that some random guy, purely out of the goodness of his heart decided to buy her alcohol?"

Most certainly not. What of a quid pro quo?

Cheers.
LC

[Ally]

What was the quid pro quo of which you speak. If you are referring to sex for alcohol, that's still prostitution. Skipping the middle stage of exchanging coin doesn't mean you aren't still whoring for booze.

[lynn cates]

similar circumstances

Hello Colin. Thanks.

"And I would think that neither Stride nor Eddowes would have said "no", in similar circumstances."

Fair enough. However, we can be more confident that Annie had been recently soliciting. Less so in the other cases. And Annie seems to have been a partly kept woman.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

shake down

Hello Ally. Thanks.

"What was she being asked for, a breath mint??"

No, that was Liz (heh-heh). Seriously, I believe she was with "Leather Apron" and he was shaking her down as he did others--not very coherently, perhaps.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

The Rifleman.

Hello (again) Ally. Thanks.

"What was the quid pro quo of which you speak?"

Good question. Wonder if her killer thought she had something of interest on her person? Would that explain his rifling her goods?

Cheers.
LC

[Ally]

Or, since he's obviously okay with murder, petty thievery isn't outside the scope of his ethical limits and after killing women, might as well see what they have that could enrich you.

If you are imagining some scenario under which a woman is begging for drinks but somehow tricks her killer into first buying her drinks without delivering the goods, I would suggest that once again this is just some convoluted method of getting around the most likely solution.

Just out of curiosity, why precisely are you so determined to propose alternate scenarios to the most probable fact: That the women were soliciting when they were murdered. Why are you trying to put forth scenarios, no matter how convoluted or unlikely, to lead people away from the most likely scenario. What does such obfuscation achieve?

[lynn cates]

And no sign shall be given them.

Hello Ally. Thanks.

"why precisely are you so determined to propose alternate scenarios to the most probable fact: That the women were soliciting when they were murdered."

Quite likely for Polly and Annie. We have their hints in that direction.

Liz, less likely--but possible. It would be more likely had those "sightings" been definitely of different men.

To speak in general terms, does it bother your investigatorial side that Liz and Kate had no signs of having had recent sexual activity?

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Chapman and Eddowes were most likely prostituting when murdered. The type, location and the fact their possessions were riled support this.

Monty

[Jon Guy]

To speak in general terms, does it bother your investigatorial side that Liz and Kate had no signs of having had recent sexual activity?

None of the Whitechapel murder victims had signs of recent sexual activity.

[lynn cates]

Seeking after a sign.

Hello Neil. Thanks.

I agree that Annie--not long before her demise--was soliciting. I further agree that both Annie and Kate had their belongings rifled (nor am I here making heavy weather about the disparity of piles--one thing at a time).

But I'm not sure why being rifled is, in itself, a sign of solicitation?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Polly and Annie

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"None of the Whitechapel murder victims had signs of recent sexual activity."

Absolutely. Polly admitted to having doss money 3 times the day of her death. Yet her thighs were clean. Obviously (well, if Oram is to be believed) she had washed. Her new lodging house seemed adult enough.

Annie had no success. That is why I believe she went to #29 Hanbury as a default option.

Cheers.
LC

[Ally]

To speak in general terms, does it bother your investigatorial side that Liz and Kate had no signs of having had recent sexual activity?

Cheers.
LC

Not particularly. For starters, define "recent". If we assume that Kate's last successful solicitation was sometime prior to her being arrested, after which she'd found the time to go and get drunk, she'd had more than sufficient time afterwards to clean herself up and more than enough items on her person to accomplish that. As for Liz, she likewise may have had significant time from her last successful solicitation to her murder to do a sufficient job of wiping herself down or she may well not have had any success at all. Soliciting doesn't come with a guarantee of a pay day and may well be why she was seen in the presence of so many different men.