GSG Conclusion

[FISHY1118]

Would you post those three photos again Trevor.

We could do with a good laugh

Not half as much of a laugh im getting from the ''SUTTON THEORY ''....... in he goes at No6 on the M.R.S. list.

[GBinOz]

Hi Trevor,

Can you point me to the references you are using for the description of the stains on the apron please?

I found this primary evidence from Long's testimony at the inquest:
[Coroner] Which did you notice first - the piece of apron or the writing on the wall? - The piece of apron, one corner of which was wet with blood.

This from a dissertation, A Piece of Apron, Some Chalk Graffiti and a Lost Hour by Jon Smyth:
If you have blood-stained hands, and you wipe them on a cloth you don't easily wet the cloth, but only badly stain it. Blood is not wet like water and does not soak in as easily, so if the portion of apron was wet with blood then something may have been leaking into the cloth for a few minutes to make it that way.

It seems to me that this is consistent with a piece of cloth being wrapped, starting from the corner, around a bleeding wound.

Cheers, George

[JeffHamm]

I am not going to continue to argue with you I have stated my point and I am happy that the test results do not corroborate the suggestion that the killer wiped his hands or the knife on the apron piece. The original apron piece is never going to be available to compare but the decsription of that piece is avaialble to us to use as a guideline, and there are only so many ways to wipe a bloodstained knife or to wipe bloody hands both will leave an identifiable residue on any type of material.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I'm aware you're happy with your results, and as you know, I do not agree for the reasons I've again outlined above. We've both stated our positions multiple times, and it would be odd if either of us were to suddenly convert the other. It's fine that we disagree, that's the nature of the topic. We do agree that it is not a good use of our time to draw out everything that has been said before on positions I think are both sufficiently presented that anyone who is interested can read and decide for themselves. Fortunately, there are areas where we do converge, and those have always been more useful topics to explore in my opinion.

- Jeff

[DJA]

I am not going to continue to argue with you I have stated my point and I am happy that the test results do not corroborate the suggestion that the killer wiped his hands or the knife on the apron piece. The original apron piece is never going to be available to compare but the decsription of that piece is avaialble to us to use as a guideline, and there are only so many ways to wipe a bloodstained knife or to wipe bloody hands both will leave an identifiable residue on any type of material.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Would you post those three photos again Trevor.

We could do with a good laugh

[Trevor Marriott]

Personally, I don't expect anybody to view your attempts at recreation of the blood and fecal matter patterns as a test of the doctor's opinion because I think everyone understands that in order to evaluate the recreation, the blood and fecal matter patterns on the original apron need to be available to compare with. How do you know you didn't get exactly the same pattern?

It has nothing to do with my personal beliefs, it has to do with how one actually does research and testing.

You did not do a proper test, all you've shown is that if you use a different type of cloth, and use the wrong amount of blood, you can make a blood stain. You can't even say that stain is unlike the original one because you do not have the original one to compare with.


And stains, and smears. I am unaware of these units of measurement for size and area, are they like stones for weight? Could you please convert those to metric units, or at least point me to where I can find the conversion factors?

And how many spots, stains, and smears were there? Did they overlap? Were they equally distributed over the cloth? Are the concentrated in any particular area? Is the cloth oily (fats from food, swet, body oils, etc) or had it been washed recently? What other materials might be in/on the cloth that might influence how fluids react to it?

If you just mean spots as people use them, vague descriptions, then if you didn't get spots, stains, and smears, then you used the wrong amount of blood, and/or your cloth has different absorbent characteristics, and/or you use spots/stains/smears differently than the doctors of 1888 did.

Research like this requires you use the same materials, in the same state (so not fresh cloth, but old cloth that may be stained with other matter; an apron that has absorbed various fats and oils may very well spread blood differently than a fresh piece of cloth). You must recreate the materials, and the amounts, very precisely. You've done none of those because we do not know those details. So you would have to do a large number of attempts to see if you can create a similar pattern - you tried once. There are many combinations of invalid cloth/blood quantities, you need to show there is no combination that would work. You tried once, got what you wanted, and stopped. That's not a test.

And there's no way to know if you get a match because, once again, you can't make a comparison without the original to compare with.

I've got a glass here, it's fairly full. Go get a glass and put some water in it, and tell me if you've been able to recreate the amount of water in my glass.

No Trevor, if one folds the apron piece, even just in half, then the blood will be on one side. This has been explained a few times now but maybe you can't visualise it, so take a towel, fold it in half. Cover your hands in flour, and pick up the cloth and wipe your hands with the folded towel to your hearts content. Unfold the towel, and your flour will be on only one side! The fold means both "sides" are the "same side" - it's like a magic tick, it seems amazing, but it's simple once you know how.

- Jeff

I am not going to continue to argue with you I have stated my point and I am happy that the test results do not corroborate the suggestion that the killer wiped his hands or the knife on the apron piece. The original apron piece is never going to be available to compare but the decsription of that piece is avaialble to us to use as a guideline, and there are only so many ways to wipe a bloodstained knife or to wipe bloody hands both will leave an identifiable residue on any type of material.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk