Whistling on Berner Street

[Herlock Sholmes]

Was Leon here? Where else would he be? Of course he was here. He comes in all the time. Great chap, but if you ask me his tendency to tell the same stories all the time is a bit of a bore.


Yes, he had his work bag with him. Always does. He does good trade here sometimes, and as long as he doesn't pester people I don't mind.


He sells cigarette boxes. They're actually not too bad. I've got one here. In fact, I would be surprised if you didn't find a few customers who have them as well. As I say, he's here all the time and often sells a few during the evening. I think he might have sold a couple that night as well.


Indeed, a little imagination and wow, one can clear good old Leon just as quickly as you want to convict him. It's all story telling at this point, and it is trivially easy to clear him if you want, and it's trivially easy to have the answers be along the line of "he rushed in, said he couldn't stay as he had to get back to his club but he had left something here. When he put it in his bag, I noticed he had a knife in there. 'For protection', he said, but he looked stern so I didn't ask further. I don't really like him, he's a bit queer and most of my regulars avoid him."

See, another story, with a different plot and totally different characters. If you don't like either of those, I've got others.

- Jeff

Couldn’t have put it better Jeff

[JeffHamm]

So how would this very simple expedient work in practice, as opposed to 'theory'?

Would the police have asked the coffee shop's management if Leon Goldstein had been there that night? Who's Leon Goldstein?

Was Leon here? Where else would he be? Of course he was here. He comes in all the time. Great chap, but if you ask me his tendency to tell the same stories all the time is a bit of a bore.

Would they have asked about the man with a black bag? Which one?

Yes, he had his work bag with him. Always does. He does good trade here sometimes, and as long as he doesn't pester people I don't mind.

Would they have asked about the contents of the bag? Same again, nor do we go snooping on customers!

He sells cigarette boxes. They're actually not too bad. I've got one here. In fact, I would be surprised if you didn't find a few customers who have them as well. As I say, he's here all the time and often sells a few during the evening. I think he might have sold a couple that night as well.

You need to stretch your imagination into thinking more about the details.

Indeed, a little imagination and wow, one can clear good old Leon just as quickly as you want to convict him. It's all story telling at this point, and it is trivially easy to clear him if you want, and it's trivially easy to have the answers be along the line of "he rushed in, said he couldn't stay as he had to get back to his club but he had left something here. When he put it in his bag, I noticed he had a knife in there. 'For protection', he said, but he looked stern so I didn't ask further. I don't really like him, he's a bit queer and most of my regulars avoid him."

See, another story, with a different plot and totally different characters. If you don't like either of those, I've got others.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'd suggest that on this issue, you have your head buried firmly in the sand.

And I’d say that you’ve spent way too much time on conspiracy theory websites.

As Fanny Mortimer said...

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

The simple explanation (and I know that you hate simple explanations) is that FM went onto her doorstep a second or 2 after Goldstein passed. She looked to her right and saw him adjacent to the club and heading toward Fairclough Street. And as he looked toward the club she sees him. Leaving her thinking it possible that he’d come from the club.

An alternative explanation is that his Jewish appearance might have led her to believe that he might have been a club member.

She saw him once, passing the Club. That should be the end of it. But it won’t because according to you there just can’t be a single, solitary aspect of this case that doesn’t involve lying or covering up or plots or conspiracies. It’s infantile.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So how would this very simple expedient work in practice, as opposed to 'theory'?

Would the police have asked the coffee shop's management if Leon Goldstein had been there that night? Who's Leon Goldstein?

Would they have asked about the man with a black bag? Which one?

Would they have asked about the contents of the bag? Same again, nor do we go snooping on customers!

You need to stretch your imagination into thinking more about the details.

And you need to desist from throwing up ludicrous obfuscations.

Is that the way the Police think? “Sorry Sarge but what’s the point on asking at the café? They might not know him.”

You ask first before dismissing a possible source of info. How do you know that he wasn’t a coffee shop regular? How do you know that he didn’t have friends there or that he knew the staff well? How do you know that one or more of them didn’t know how he earned a living?

You ask the questions. It’s simple stuff.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I agree that we can’t make assumptions. We can’t assume without evidence that the Police checked Goldstein’s story. Just as we can’t assume that they didn’t. But do we have to assume that the Victorian Police were so incompetent that they dispensed with the most basic of checks on an issue so important? Goldstein was clearly a person of interest in a criminal investigation which made all other investigations at that time seem insignificant, so is it a stretch of the imagination to suggest the possibility or even the likelihood that they took the very simple expedient of strolling round to the coffee shop to check that he was telling the truth?

So how would this very simple expedient work in practice, as opposed to 'theory'?

Would the police have asked the coffee shop's management if Leon Goldstein had been there that night? Who's Leon Goldstein?

Would they have asked about the man with a black bag? Which one?

Would they have asked about the contents of the bag? Same again, nor do we go snooping on customers!

You need to stretch your imagination into thinking more about the details.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Desperate, desperate stuff. People will say a ‘I walked down the street’ or ‘I walked up’ the street’ interchangeably. In fact I’d suggest that people would say ‘I walked down the street’ far more often.

I'd suggest that on this issue, you have your head buried firmly in the sand.

Mortimer saw Goldstein once. It’s transparently obvious but again you resort to latching on to one word to try and make a point. As I said…desperate stuff.

As Fanny Mortimer said...

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

[FrankO]

Hear, hear!

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I think the actual notation on the old maps was "Beyond this place there be dragons". A supposition without the burden of proof.

Frank is right. We can delve, deliberate, contemplate, postulate, present irrefutable logic and have it receive unfounded denials, and speculate all we like, but it all comes to nothing. "Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it". Most of the records are also lost, so we are attempting a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing. You have to wonder why we keep doing it???

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Yes, there be dragons, not monsters. But I entirely agree with Frank, just in case that's not coming across. Speculation is just that, idea spinning, it's not solution finding. You don't have to counter speculation with fact, or proof, just a counter-speculation, for that's all it's worth. By simply demonstrating that another line of speculation leads to a different conclusion, to mis-use that word, proves the original is nothing more than vapours.

For it to be taken seriously, it must lead to a new line of investigation that gets researched, and which in tern produces new pieces of the puzzle that fit into existing pieces and not one spirals into an every increasingly denser fog by requiring even more speculations to make otherwise meaningless pieces fit.

Otherwise, it simply demarks the boundary of our knowledge, and to venture into it one must accept their is nothing to guide them, and the wilderness is vast.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

George, have you not received your Ripperology gravy train ticket yet? I'll have a word with the Lord's of Ripperology and see where it is.

Basically, once your in, you can join our elite clique and help keep that train rolling. Uphold the old established beliefs, refute all those who challenge them and above all, keep the mystery of Jack alive for our own nefarious and highly lucrative means. Sure, we allow a few left field thinkers to participate, but anyone who gets to close to "the truth" has to be stopped. Hear that whistle George? The Gravy Trains coming, we've saved you a seat.

All aboard!

(Incidentally, there seems to have been a slight processing issue at HQ, as no one has actually received any of the promised money and/or glory for donkeys years now. I'm sure it'll be sorted soon though.)

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Most of the records are also lost, so we are attempting a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing. You have to wonder why we keep doing it???

Cheers, George

George, have you not received your Ripperology gravy train ticket yet? I'll have a word with the Lord's of Ripperology and see where it is.

Basically, once your in, you can join our elite clique and help keep that train rolling. Uphold the old established beliefs, refute all those who challenge them and above all, keep the mystery of Jack alive for our own nefarious and highly lucrative means. Sure, we allow a few left field thinkers to participate, but anyone who gets to close to "the truth" has to be stopped. Hear that whistle George? The Gravy Trains coming, we've saved you a seat.

All aboard!

(Incidentally, there seems to have been a slight processing issue at HQ, as no one has actually received any of the promised money and/or glory for donkeys years now. I'm sure it'll be sorted soon though.)

[GBinOz]

Actually, to come clean, my "here there be monsters" was just a play on the common (and apocryphal) notion that old maps would mark unexplored areas with "here there be monsters." They didn't, though they did draw monsters just to indicate uncharted areas.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I think the actual notation on the old maps was "Beyond this place there be dragons". A supposition without the burden of proof.

Frank is right. We can delve, deliberate, contemplate, postulate, present irrefutable logic and have it receive unfounded denials, and speculate all we like, but it all comes to nothing. "Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it". Most of the records are also lost, so we are attempting a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing. You have to wonder why we keep doing it???

Cheers, George

[JeffHamm]

It was the "here there be monsters" part, Michael.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it
that in the process he does not become a monster.
And if you gaze long enough into an abyss,
the abyss will gaze back into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche

Actually, to come clean, my "here there be monsters" was just a play on the common (and apocryphal) notion that old maps would mark unexplored areas with "here there be monsters." They didn't, though they did draw monsters just to indicate uncharted areas.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Sounds like something straight out of Friedrich Nietzsche, Jeff.

Ha ha! I'm embarrassed to say I've never read Nietzsche. I like to justify that by arguing it indicates I don't need to.

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

It was the "here there be monsters" part, Michael.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it
that in the process he does not become a monster.
And if you gaze long enough into an abyss,
the abyss will gaze back into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche

[Herlock Sholmes]

Sounds like something straight out of Friedrich Nietzsche, Jeff.

Wasn’t he a Centre Half for Bayern Munich Scott?