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  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    How does this explain why one of the three reports does not name or quote the person who made the statement?

    The second paragraph (see #188), sounds very much like the thoughts of a detective. Someone is trying to work out what happened, and not just provide a report. I think the speculation is owing to the person who took the statement, and not the journalist responsible for the report.
    Ok, lets have a look at the Evening News of Oct. 1st.

    Here the first report begins with this paragraph.
    "Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot."

    I think we can all agree that "three doors from the gateway" is No.36, the home of Mrs Mortimer. Three doors south would be the beer house on the corner at Fairclough St., though she is not identified by name.

    The above exchange reads to me like the reporter was a journalist from the Evening News, very informal, almost conversational in presentation.

    The next report is buried within a long account where Mortimer's observations are given in the third-person. "Two doors from the club", is the same as "three doors from the gateway".
    "A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so".....etc.

    In my view this may be a copied story, and as I do a search I find this same account has been copied from the Daily News of the same date.


    Further down we have a third account where the witness is identified by name.
    "Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual"....etc.

    The above is part of an agency account. The evening press often copied stories from the morning papers. For an original take a look at the Daily News of the same date, you can read several paragraphs which are verbatim, yet proceeding backwards up the page you will see that the beginning paragraphs concerning Diemschitz have been reworded.
    It looks like the editor at the Evening News copied the story and attempted to reword the whole thing to make it look like their own, but gave up half way through and just published the rest of it verbatim.

    How do we know this last account was from an agency? - because we read the exact same paragraph for Mortimer in another morning paper, The Morning Advertiser. Morning papers go to press overnight so for two or more morning papers to carry the exact same report means they obtained the report from a third-party - an agency.
    And, just for good measure you will see the Times carried the same accounts, just edited down and reworded.

    Always remember, weekend papers often copied their stories from the Dailies of the previous week. Evening papers often copied from the morning press of the same day. Whenever you have cause to question if you are dealing with an original story in an evening paper, do a search in the morning press for the exact same wording.
    Some morning papers even leave the credit in the story. By this I mean, "...The Central News reports.....etc...etc." or Press Association, or whomever. More often than not these credits are edited out, but sometimes they leave them in confirming it's an agencies story.
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

      Hi George. Thanks.

      Are you sure the reporter wasn't only commenting on her appearance, rather than what he had been told about her? Why would the husbands occupation be volunteered or asked about?

      Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her.

      Isn't this just Fanny wearing her Sunday best?

      Regarding Goldstein heading north versus south, to me this comes back to the question of what was meant about the man Mortimer had seen pass through the street previously. Let's assume she did go to her door on Smith's passing, and this was at 12:45 Mortimer Time. She also goes to the yard just after 1am MT. Why did she not then say...?

      I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between a quarter to one and one o'clock this morning, and did not notice anything unusual.

      Why can't she have also gone to her door at 12:30 MT? If she had briefly come in at 12:40 MT, she could have seen Goldstein walk south in that (previous) period. The 5 minute or so gap would then justify her claim to have been at her doorstep nearly all of that half hour. At 12:45 MT, she goes to the door with the intention of shooting the bolts. It's obvious to me why the bolts weren't already shot. It's also obvious that the 10 minutes only theory, leaves too much unexplained.

      According to the thread on Letchford's sister, the occupations of the husbands of the sisters were; porter, carman, boot maker.
      Hi Andrew,

      Are you sure the reporter wasn't only commenting on her appearance, rather than what he had been told about her? Why would the husbands occupation be volunteered or asked about?
      I don't know, but there it is.


      Isn't this just Fanny wearing her Sunday best?
      I don't think so.

      According to the thread on Letchford's sister, the occupations of the husbands of the sisters were; porter, carman, boot maker.
      OK, so we have three door step snoops, Mrs Artisan, Mortimer and Letchford's sister. Interesting that the reporter saw her talking with one or two neighbours. A door step snoop conference?

      Since the Mrs Artisan's Wife account gives no times we can't know if her sighting of Goldstein was before or after Mortimer's sighting.

      Cheers, George

      “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”
      If money can't buy happiness, explain motorcycles, malt whisky and pipe tobacco.
      Everybody lies - Greg House MD

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

        Ok, lets have a look at the Evening News of Oct. 1st.

        Here the first report begins with this paragraph.
        "Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot."

        I think we can all agree that "three doors from the gateway" is No.36, the home of Mrs Mortimer. Three doors south would be the beer house on the corner at Fairclough St., though she is not identified by name.

        The above exchange reads to me like the reporter was a journalist from the Evening News, very informal, almost conversational in presentation.

        The next report is buried within a long account where Mortimer's observations are given in the third-person. "Two doors from the club", is the same as "three doors from the gateway".
        "A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so".....etc.

        In my view this may be a copied story, and as I do a search I find this same account has been copied from the Daily News of the same date.


        Further down we have a third account where the witness is identified by name.
        "Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual"....etc.

        The above is part of an agency account. The evening press often copied stories from the morning papers. For an original take a look at the Daily News of the same date, you can read several paragraphs which are verbatim, yet proceeding backwards up the page you will see that the beginning paragraphs concerning Diemschitz have been reworded.
        It looks like the editor at the Evening News copied the story and attempted to reword the whole thing to make it look like their own, but gave up half way through and just published the rest of it verbatim.

        How do we know this last account was from an agency? - because we read the exact same paragraph for Mortimer in another morning paper, The Morning Advertiser. Morning papers go to press overnight so for two or more morning papers to carry the exact same report means they obtained the report from a third-party - an agency.
        And, just for good measure you will see the Times carried the same accounts, just edited down and reworded.

        Always remember, weekend papers often copied their stories from the Dailies of the previous week. Evening papers often copied from the morning press of the same day. Whenever you have cause to question if you are dealing with an original story in an evening paper, do a search in the morning press for the exact same wording.
        Some morning papers even leave the credit in the story. By this I mean, "...The Central News reports.....etc...etc." or Press Association, or whomever. More often than not these credits are edited out, but sometimes they leave them in confirming it's an agencies story.
        Hi Jon,

        I agree with your rationale as to how the three reports appeared in the same publication.There can be no doubt that report#2 identifies Mortimer by address location, and #3 by name and address. But while report#1 identifies the location as outside Mortimer's home, it does not identify Mortimer as the subject of the interview, but excludes her as she was the wife of a Carman, not a well to do Artisan. It seems me that there were at least three, or four if Marshall is to be counted, door step snoopers in the vicinty that night. What do you think?

        Cheers, George
        “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”
        If money can't buy happiness, explain motorcycles, malt whisky and pipe tobacco.
        Everybody lies - Greg House MD

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

          Hi Andrew,

          Are you sure the reporter wasn't only commenting on her appearance, rather than what he had been told about her? Why would the husbands occupation be volunteered or asked about?
          I don't know, but there it is.
          I think the key word is 'apparently'.

          Isn't this just Fanny wearing her Sunday best?
          I don't think so.
          Fanny will not be impressed.

          According to the thread on Letchford's sister, the occupations of the husbands of the sisters were; porter, carman, boot maker.
          OK, so we have three door step snoops, Mrs Artisan, Mortimer and Letchford's sister. Interesting that the reporter saw her talking with one or two neighbours. A door step snoop conference?
          The Star: The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.

          A breakthrough! Someone(s) we know of, witnessed the Schwartz incident! Although how did they know it was the murdered woman, who was thrown to the ground?

          Since the Mrs Artisan's Wife account gives no times we can't know if her sighting of Goldstein was before or after Mortimer's sighting.

          Cheers, George
          This woman made two references to the hearing the police.

          I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.'

          I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body.


          Why did someone go to the closed door, and call out about the murder? Did they know the woman had very soon before been at her doorstep? How?

          If the woman was not Fanny, then it must have been someone who lived north of #36. She heard the call for police. Abraham Herschburg lived at #28, but he heard a police whistle. Why was he alerted by that sound, and not the calls for police? Makes you wonder which came first.
          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post


            This woman made two references to the hearing the police.

            I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.'

            I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body.


            Why did someone go to the closed door, and call out about the murder? Did they know the woman had very soon before been at her doorstep? How?

            If the woman was not Fanny, then it must have been someone who lived north of #36. She heard the call for police. Abraham Herschburg lived at #28, but he heard a police whistle. Why was he alerted by that sound, and not the calls for police? Makes you wonder which came first.
            Hi Andrew,

            Herschburg was upstairs in the club at the time. IMO the whistle he heard was blown by Koze or Jacobs. I think most people would include the whistle as a call for the police.

            The person who called out 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' was not necessarily right outside her door and I think it is doubtful they knew she had very soon before been at her doorstep. There has been speculation that this may have actually been a teaser by the killer as the Coram knife had a 10 inch blade.

            Cheers, George
            “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”
            If money can't buy happiness, explain motorcycles, malt whisky and pipe tobacco.
            Everybody lies - Greg House MD

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

              Hi Andrew,

              Herschburg was upstairs in the club at the time. IMO the whistle he heard was blown by Koze or Jacobs. I think most people would include the whistle as a call for the police.

              The person who called out 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' was not necessarily right outside her door and I think it is doubtful they knew she had very soon before been at her doorstep. There has been speculation that this may have actually been a teaser by the killer as the Coram knife had a 10 inch blade.

              Cheers, George
              George,
              if Herschburg was in the club at the time, then we have two big questions.
              1. Why did he speak as an outsider, when interviewed by the press?
              2. Why does he seem to know all sorts of stuff about the club, the work that goes on in the yard, who didn't discover the body, and who did discover the body, except for that man's name? Could he really know all the stuff he rattles off, but not Diemschitz' name, if he were a member of the club and inside it when the body was discovered?

              No one who was definitely at the club at the time, mentions hearing a whistle. Is it not much more likely that if the whistle was blown by someone associated with the vigilance committee, it would have been a patrolman on the street?

              If that person had not been right at her door, then was it Koster rousing the neighbors? How early was Koster on the scene? Apparently it was early enough to claim the discovery as his own. Presumably he missed seeing a whopping great costermonger barrow, parked right next to the victim.

              The reference to the 10" blade - same length as the Coram knife - is fascinating. If the murder knife had been left behind, perhaps deliberately, then what happens when someone on the street is first alerted to the crime, and finds a knife on the ground and someone from the club near the body? It would be something like Paul coming across Cross, and noticing a knife next to Nichols.
              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                Hi Jon,

                I agree with your rationale as to how the three reports appeared in the same publication.There can be no doubt that report#2 identifies Mortimer by address location, and #3 by name and address. But while report#1 identifies the location as outside Mortimer's home, it does not identify Mortimer as the subject of the interview, but excludes her as she was the wife of a Carman, not a well to do Artisan. It seems me that there were at least three, or four if Marshall is to be counted, door step snoopers in the vicinty that night. What do you think?

                Cheers, George
                Hi George.

                I do agree the report indicates there were a group of neighbors at or outside that address, yet if you take Mortimer's story step by step and compare it with that of 'Mrs Artisdan' (the first account), they are almost identical.

                Both Mrs Artisan & Mortimer were "just about to go to bed".
                Both responded to a commotion outside.
                Both had been "at the door", and came in, when they heard an alarm.
                Both mention Diemschitz as the first witness in the event.
                Both ran to see, and to describe the body.
                Both mention seeing "the man with the black bag", pass up the street.

                All this against the husband being a "Costermonger" or an "Artisan"?
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                  George,
                  if Herschburg was in the club at the time, then we have two big questions.
                  1. Why did he speak as an outsider, when interviewed by the press?
                  2. Why does he seem to know all sorts of stuff about the club, the work that goes on in the yard, who didn't discover the body, and who did discover the body, except for that man's name? Could he really know all the stuff he rattles off, but not Diemschitz' name, if he were a member of the club and inside it when the body was discovered?
                  I don't know the answers to your questions, but he was on a list of club members who were in the premises at the time.
                  No one who was definitely at the club at the time, mentions hearing a whistle. Is it not much more likely that if the whistle was blown by someone associated with the vigilance committee, it would have been a patrolman on the street?
                  More likely someone who was in the club viewing the body - Koze or Jacobs.
                  If that person had not been right at her door, then was it Koster rousing the neighbors? How early was Koster on the scene? Apparently it was early enough to claim the discovery as his own. Presumably he missed seeing a whopping great costermonger barrow, parked right next to the victim.
                  I wasn't referring to Koster. Just to the possiblity that it may have been the killer referring to a specific knife.
                  The reference to the 10" blade - same length as the Coram knife - is fascinating. If the murder knife had been left behind, perhaps deliberately, then what happens when someone on the street is first alerted to the crime, and finds a knife on the ground and someone from the club near the body? It would be something like Paul coming across Cross, and noticing a knife next to Nichols.
                  Except that the Coram knife was found the next night in Whitechapel Road outside the premises where Cohen was arrested.
                  Cheers, George
                  “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”
                  If money can't buy happiness, explain motorcycles, malt whisky and pipe tobacco.
                  Everybody lies - Greg House MD

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                    Hi George.

                    I do agree the report indicates there were a group of neighbors at or outside that address, yet if you take Mortimer's story step by step and compare it with that of 'Mrs Artisdan' (the first account), they are almost identical.

                    Both Mrs Artisan & Mortimer were "just about to go to bed".
                    Both responded to a commotion outside.
                    Both had been "at the door", and came in, when they heard an alarm.
                    Both mention Diemschitz as the first witness in the event.
                    Both ran to see, and to describe the body.
                    Both mention seeing "the man with the black bag", pass up the street.

                    All this against the husband being a "Costermonger" or an "Artisan"?
                    Hi Jon,

                    There are many similarities, as would be expected around descriptions of the same event if they retired from their door step at a similar time. Having been alerted and run to the scene they would have both seen Louis, as that's were he was. But Mrs Artisan saw the man with the black bag pass up the street, and Mortimer saw him pass down the street.

                    Cheers, George
                    “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”
                    If money can't buy happiness, explain motorcycles, malt whisky and pipe tobacco.
                    Everybody lies - Greg House MD

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                      There are many similarities, as would be expected around descriptions of the same event if they retired from their door step at a similar time.
                      Mrs Mortimer: It's goodnight from me.
                      Mrs Artisan: And it's goodnight from her.

                      Having been alerted and run to the scene they would have both seen Louis, as that's were he was. But Mrs Artisan saw the man with the black bag pass up the street, and Mortimer saw him pass down the street.
                      Which came first?
                      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                        Mrs Mortimer: It's goodnight from me.
                        Mrs Artisan: And it's goodnight from her.



                        Which came first?
                        A good question. And Letchford's sister was also at her door.

                        Cheers, George
                        “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”
                        If money can't buy happiness, explain motorcycles, malt whisky and pipe tobacco.
                        Everybody lies - Greg House MD

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                          A good question. And Letchford's sister was also at her door.

                          Cheers, George
                          Has the presence of these three women on the street, dented your faith in Schwartz at all?

                          Presumably Fanny was the one who witnessed Goldstein, closest to the time of the murder. MA, Oct 3:

                          W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.

                          Mrs Artisan must have seen him previously...

                          I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

                          Rather than Mrs Mortimer...

                          ...the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.

                          Which is a little confusing, but there you go. Perhaps the police made a trip to the Spectacle Alley cafe that Goldstein had been to, to confirm his visit and clear up any confusion. Although according to Wess, Goldstein's statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, was deemed entirely satisfactory at the time they left Leman street station, so perhaps there was no follow up. I guess the police supposed that a man walking harmlessly down Berner street carrying a work bag, was of little or no consequence.
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • [QUOTE=NotBlamedForNothing;n775405]

                            Has the presence of these three women on the street, dented your faith in Schwartz at all?

                            Presumably Fanny was the one who witnessed Goldstein, closest to the time of the murder. MA, Oct 3:

                            W. Wess, secretary of the International Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight, and stated that, it having come to his knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house with a black, shiny bag, and walking very fast down the street from the Commercial-road at about the time of the murder, was a member of the club, he persuaded him last night, between ten and eleven o'clock, to accompany him to the Leman-street station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, which was entirely satisfactory. The young man's name is Leon Goldstein, and he is a traveller.

                            Mrs Artisan must have seen him previously...

                            I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

                            Rather than Mrs Mortimer...

                            ...the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.

                            Which is a little confusing, but there you go. Perhaps the police made a trip to the Spectacle Alley cafe that Goldstein had been to, to confirm his visit and clear up any confusion. Although according to Wess, Goldstein's statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening, was deemed entirely satisfactory at the time they left Leman street station, so perhaps there was no follow up. I guess the police supposed that a man walking harmlessly down Berner street carrying a work bag, was of little or no consequence.[/QUOTE]

                            Not entirely. There was a marginal note next to his report saying "Who saw this man go down Berner St. or did he come forward to clear himself is case any questions might be asked."

                            Cheers, George
                            “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”
                            If money can't buy happiness, explain motorcycles, malt whisky and pipe tobacco.
                            Everybody lies - Greg House MD

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                              Not entirely. There was a marginal note next to his report saying "Who saw this man go down Berner St. or did he come forward to clear himself is case any questions might be asked."
                              Wasn't that note written by someone from the Home Office?
                              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                                Hi Jon,

                                There are many similarities, as would be expected around descriptions of the same event if they retired from their door step at a similar time. Having been alerted and run to the scene they would have both seen Louis, as that's were he was. But Mrs Artisan saw the man with the black bag pass up the street, and Mortimer saw him pass down the street.

                                Cheers, George
                                Hi George.

                                If you follow the words of Mortimer, she said she was at the door, then "preparing to go to bed". It was just before that when she saw Goldstein was down the street.

                                Mrs Artisan said she was "just before I turned in" when she saw Goldstein was up the street.

                                Magically, both these women were "about to go to bed" when they saw Goldstein, with his black bag pass through the street. So it's hardly likely one woman saw him leave then the other woman saw him return. The two accounts imply the same time.

                                It's not unusual for people to refer to "up the street", or "down the street", when referring to the same direction.
                                Some will refer to "up" being the nearest main road (Commercial Rd.), whereas others will refer to "up" being the house numbers increase in that direction. So, in the first case "up" towards Commercial Rd., whereas to others "up" is towards Fairclough because the street numbers increase in that direction.

                                The agency report (third account), though written in the first-person has no quotation marks, as opposed to the first account which does have quotation marks and offers a verbatim exchange. I point this out because a reporter (outsider) may have written the agency account, if you notice it was also the reporter (an outsider) who asked Mrs Artisan if she saw a man & woman walk "down" the street.
                                In both cases the reporter (not a local person) used the expression "down".

                                I would have to give the benefit of the doubt to the likelyhood they are the same woman.
                                Last edited by Wickerman; 12-05-2021, 01:50 PM.
                                Regards, Jon S.

                                Comment

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