The press, what they knew and how they knew it.

[Wickerman]

Jon, my friend, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Thats understandable David, I was surprised you held in there for as long as you did

I just won the H-Cup.
That's no lie !

18 May 2013 : RCT Champion d'Europe, capitaine : Jonny Wilkinson

Cheers all
I have some Bowmore to talk with.

Congratulations, I'm sure you'll find it more benificial, just put your feet up and knock 'em back!

[DVV]

Jon, my friend, I have no idea what you're talking about.
I just won the H-Cup.
That's no lie !

18 May 2013 : RCT Champion d'Europe, capitaine : Jonny Wilkinson

Cheers all
I have some Bowmore to talk with.

[Wickerman]

Understood, Jon, but it makes little difference : if, as you are saying, Bond's TOD changed the direction of the investigation, that just means the police considered Hutch a liar. What else could they think ?
(But imo Bond's hazardous estimation didn't play any role here.)

Cheers

Had they "considered him a liar" as you put it, they would have dropped the investigation immediately which they did not do.

Even the press made no such claim. If you recall the Hutchinson Enquiry was described as of "reduced importance", not abandoned altogether.
So "lying" was not under consideration, but their change of direction is more consistent with a directive from above.

The Met. were "induced" to realign their inquiry with the Cox witness while the City force maintained a focus on the well-dressed man suspect.
There was no clear cut decision which is indicative of no definite solution to the dilemma.
A lying witness would have been a clear cut resolution, but clearly that was not the case in the eyes of the Met.

[DVV]

I don't think she was already dead. Hutchinson told the truth. That is my opinion.

Bond's report (in collaboration with Phillips, it must be noted) erroneously concluded her death to be earlier than actuality. This was the reason for the change in direction of the investigation for Scotland Yard (not the City Police, we should note).

The basic premise of any Hutchinson argument has always been this erroneous belief that he was discredited. It is necessary to understand the impact that the medical opinion would have had on the direction of the investigation.

Understood, Jon, but it makes little difference : if, as you are saying, Bond's TOD changed the direction of the investigation, that just means the police considered Hutch a liar. What else could they think ?
(But imo Bond's hazardous estimation didn't play any role here.)

Cheers

[Wickerman]

You seem to be preaching to the converted, here, Jon.

I know Bond's TOD (= between 1 and 2am) is meaningless, since he didn't know at what time MJK had her last meal.

But you are of opinion that Hutch had always told the truth.

Hence my question : how could the impeccable Hutch have seen MJK when she was already dead, according to the impeccable Bond ?

Cheers

I don't think she was already dead. Hutchinson told the truth. That is my opinion.

Bond's report (in collaboration with Phillips, it must be noted) erroneously concluded her death to be earlier than actuality. This was the reason for the change in direction of the investigation for Scotland Yard (not the City Police, we should note).

The basic premise of any Hutchinson argument has always been this erroneous belief that he was discredited. It is necessary to understand the impact that the medical opinion would have had on the direction of the investigation.
This is not an attempt by me to establish that Bond was correct, it is more to explain why the Hutchinson investigation faded out over time with no tangible resolve.

[DVV]

You seem to be preaching to the converted, here, Jon.

I know Bond's TOD (= between 1 and 2am) is meaningless, since he didn't know at what time MJK had her last meal.

But you are of opinion that Hutch had always told the truth.

Hence my question : how could the impeccable Hutch have seen MJK when she was already dead, according to the impeccable Bond ?

Cheers

[Wickerman]

I'm lost, Jon.
How could Hutch tell the truth if she were dead already ?

The police did not 'know' if she was dead by 2:00 am, neither did they 'know' if Hutchinson's suspect was culpable in any way.
No confirmation was available in support of Bond's opinion, but neither was there any confirmation of Astrachan killing Mary Kelly.

If Bond was mistaken, then Mary died sometime later, but whether that was at 3:00 am, 4:00am or still later cannot be verified.

You should remember the controversy over what Dr. Phillips had said about the death of Chapman, in contention with the statement of Richardson who was adamant that her body was not in the yard.
The police went through great pains to find a weakness in Richardson's story because they were naturally inclined to work with the professional medical opinion. Likewise, their natural inclination is to work with the professional opinion of Dr Bond. But, that does not mean his opinion is beyond dispute.

The 'Hutchinson' investigation did not end abruptly, it faded over time, which indicates no conclusive determination was accepted with respect to the precise hour of her death.

[Bridewell]

Deleted

[DVV]

and from another song

"I've never told the truth
So I can never tell a lie..."

Tom "Hutch" Waits

[DVV]

I'm lost, Jon.
How could Hutch tell the truth if she were dead already ?

Back to back
Belly to belly
And I don't give a damn
I've done dead already...

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

and Voodoo Astrakan could make the corpse walk ?

Cheers (from Haiti)

The police did not give up easily on Hutchinson's story...

"The prisoner, it may be remembered, had been sought for by the police in consequence of a report of his movements on the night of the murder of Mary Janet Kelly in Dorset street, Spitalfields; and it was said by the police that they wished the fullest inquiry as to the prisoner's movements on the night of Nov. 8."
Daily News, 15 Dec. 1888.

The police apparently did not give up on Isaac's without a fight, but precisely what his alibi was is lost to us now.

A bird in the hand (Bond's opinion) is worth two in the bush (any suspect after 2:00 am).

[DVV]

Hello David
Yes I thought that last post might also wake you up

Actually I woke up when I noticed Garry did not believe in the double event.

With Ben I'm still sleeping on my two ears (straight from French).

Cheers

[DVV]

Dr. Bond's estimated time of death.

Hi Jon

and Voodoo Astrakan could make the corpse walk ?

Cheers (from Haiti)

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

then what would make the last man known to have entered Mary's room an unlikely suspect ?

Cheers

Dr. Bond's estimated time of death.



Hello David
Yes I thought that last post might also wake you up

Hi all
Wake me up when Ben or Garry will be proven wrong.
Thanks in advance

I had previously warned Ben that the true circumstances of the arrest of Isaac's would be in the records of the Assizes. Which brings us right back to the theme of the thread - What the press knew, and how they knew it.

Stories published in the press concerning details of the police investigation must be treated with caution, they often get their facts skewed, (Ben was citing a press article as evidence).


The police were not looking for Isaac's in connection with the murder of Mary Kelly, but they had been led to believe he was implicated? in the assault on Annie Farmer. This they learned was impossible, as a press article from early December alludes to.

"The police, however, were led to believe that he was connected, not with the mutilations, but with the recent attempt to murder a woman in George-street, Spitalfields. Exhaustive inquiries were made, but as far as can be ascertained the man could in no way be connected with that outrage."

The police did not enlighten the press why he "could in no way be connected" with that crime (he was in prison), it was none of their business.

Mary Cusins, and/or Cornelius Oakes, are the most likely sources of the description of Isaac's with an Astrachan coat. The police interview with Cusins was before Hutchinson came forward so they already had 'this type' of description in their possession when they sat with Hutchinson.

They may very well have had second thoughts about what Mary Cusins told them once Hutchinson provided his story, but in the next few hours the conclusion of Dr. Bond would have been received by Abberline and interest in Hutchinson's story subsided.
Naturally, they could not be absolutely sure Bond was correct, but without strong evidence to the contrary, the detective department had little reason to pursue a suspect who appeared after 2:00 am that morning.

Professional opinion is preferable over the story of a layman.

[DVV]

Like it or not, and I know you don't, the reality is we possess reasonable confirmation that Hutchinson was telling the truth.

And no, I do not think Astrachan was the Whitechapel murderer.

Hi Jon,

then what would make the last man known to have entered Mary's room an unlikely suspect ?

Cheers