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A new front in the history wars? A new article on 'the five'

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  • #91
    I thought the article was more balanced than most on this subject. It did cover criticisms made by both HR and those characterised as ripperologists. I did of course notice the difference in tone and language in examining the issues as they relate to HR and her work and how it discussed some of the issues relating to ripperology. I think the language used did demonstrate a predetermined bias of support for HRs approach and her version of the truth on the subject.

    That said, it did not shy away from high-lighting the weaknesses in HR's work, even if it tried to also defend her work from those very weaknesses under the guise of academic licence.

    I did have a couple of moments of annoyance at the way the debate, HR's work and we were characterised. And the quoting of Sam Flynn and rjpalmer was unnecessary and inappropriate in an article written in a way to suggest it was a balanced academic treatment of the debate.

    I do think HR raises some interesting questions, despite agreeing with some of the criticism of the way she does that.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Observer View Post
      Max Kosminsky 21 St George Street Grocer 1921. Probably well known to the researchers in here
      That must be the son of Samuel Kosminsky, one of the West End furriers. His uncle Martin has been mentioned a fair amount.

      One of Scott Nelson's articles mentions Samuel and Martin.

      Casebook: Jack the Ripper - The Polish Jew Suspect - Jewish Witness Connection: Some Further Speculations

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      • #93
        In one example, a user comments that it was unlikely that the fourth canonical victim Catherine Eddowes, would willingly lay down on the cobblestones of Mitre Square to sleep without a pillow
        Ok....who said that?
        Regards

        Herlock



        Chairman of the National Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To The Old Established Theories.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

          Ok....who said that?
          Or this?

          “another user almost immediately points out that ‘many rough sleepers slept over the blow holes [from the London underground railway] as the steam kept them warm’ (Casebook, 2019)”

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          • #95
            Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

            Or this?

            “another user almost immediately points out that ‘many rough sleepers slept over the blow holes [from the London underground railway] as the steam kept them warm’ (Casebook, 2019)”
            Come on Gary. Own up.
            Regards

            Herlock



            Chairman of the National Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To The Old Established Theories.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

              Come on Gary. Own up.
              Are these actual quotes?


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              • #97
                Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                Are these actual quotes?

                I do hope not, Gary.

                In one example, a user comments that it was unlikely that the fourth canonical victim Catherine Eddowes, would willingly lay down on the cobblestones of Mitre Square to sleep without a pillow
                Lie down, surely?

                [shudder]

                Whoever wrote that should be shot.

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


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                • #98
                  Originally posted by caz View Post

                  I do hope not, Gary.



                  Lie down, surely?

                  [shudder]

                  Whoever wrote that should be shot.

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  I was more upset by ‘cobblestones’. They were granite setts! ;-)

                  The implausibility of Kate asking to be released from a safe, dry and relatively comfortable police cell so she could trek to dark, damp and potentially dangerous Mitre Square and get her head down in the middle of the pavement for a few minutes before the next copper came along seems to have escaped Dr Bleakly.

                  If you Google ‘rough sleeper’, how many examples of people lying flat on their backs in the middle of a pavement do you find? None. They’re all tucked up in corners, doorways, benches etc.
                  Last edited by MrBarnett; 02-26-2021, 11:49 AM.

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                  • #99
                    I’m reminded of the antics of blind Tommy Fogarty (Pearly Poll’s husband) here. On one occasion in Leman Street he asked if there was a policeman nearby and when he was told there was, he put his fist through a shop window. Why? I imagine because he preferred to spend a night in the cells than on the street.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                      If you Google ‘rough sleeper’, how many examples of people lying flat on their backs in the middle of a pavement do you find? None. They’re all tucked up in corners, doorways, benches etc.
                      No offense, but you clearly haven't visited Seattle or San Francisco recently!

                      Hallie is originally a Californian, I believe.

                      Out here, we see it. Even in drizzly Vancouver or Portlandia.

                      Downtown, it is not particularly unusual to have to step over the top of someone who is literally sprawled in the middle of the pavement.


                      Click image for larger version

Name:	sleeping on the sidewalk.JPG
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ID:	751847

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                      • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                        No offense, but you clearly haven't visited Seattle or San Francisco recently!

                        Hallie is originally a Californian, I believe.

                        Out here, we see it. Even in drizzly Vancouver or Portlandia.

                        Downtown, it is not particularly unusual to have to step over the top of someone who is literally sprawled in the middle of the pavement.


                        Click image for larger version  Name:	sleeping on the sidewalk.JPG Views:	0 Size:	50.4 KB ID:	751847
                        She’s lying against the wall.


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                        • Click image for larger version  Name:	BA30C44E-415E-4289-875B-989DD52BA6CF.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	93.3 KB ID:	751852

                          This could be the corner of Mitre Square.

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                          • Someone completely out of their box on drugs who has collapsed in a heap and is lying unconscious where they fell is not a valid comparison. Kate was sober enough to convince the custody officer that it was safe to release her.

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                            • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                              Click image for larger version Name:	BA30C44E-415E-4289-875B-989DD52BA6CF.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	93.3 KB ID:	751852

                              This could be the corner of Mitre Square.
                              Indeed it could be. And it looks like someone is sleeping there.

                              Here's another sleeper:

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	sleeping three.JPG Views:	0 Size:	37.6 KB ID:	751855

                              I am not defending Rubenhold per se, but my worry is that, in their zeal to dismiss her thesis as garbage, her critics are overstating their own assumptions as certainties.

                              Personally, although I don't accept many of her arguments, I think she is in the right ballpark psychologically.

                              I don't think the murderer is victimizing "prostitutes." He is victimizing middle-aged alcoholics who are out on the street at night. I doubt it mattered one iota to him if they were soliciting or merely wandering the streets.


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                              • I don't think it would be appreciably less surprising to learn that Tabram or Nichols were fornicating in the spots where they were found, as opposed to taking a nap.

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