Other attacks : man wearing deerstalker hat

[caz]

I thought “whiskers” back then meant what we call sideburns. Therefore someone could have a moustache but not whiskers,

The billycock vs felt hat vs deerstalker is an interesting question. I think Wicker Man covered this well earlier in thread.

I’ll look at your other points later tonight.

Craig

Yes, I too thought whiskers referred to sideburns rather than a moustache. Witnesses and police would have been aware of the difference, I think. I also wonder if "no whiskers" or even "clean shaven" could have referred to a man with no beard or sideburns, who could still have had a moustache.

This is all very interesting, Craig, because we wouldn't expect eye witness descriptions of the same man to be identical, any more than we should expect anyone to take careful note of the time, when nothing suspicious is going on. If you're used to passing a shop's clock, or church clock, on a routine journey, or you're a copper on his beat, that would be a different matter, and the time would always then be a natural thing to know.

Weak eyes and an awkward gait are strong indicators of the same man being described, being features more likely to stand out than generic dark clothing or even hats, which nearly everyone wore and would be more forgettable.

Another recurring feature seems to be a blotchy or red complexion and ginger whiskers.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Nice one, Joshua.

Love,

Caz
X

[Joshua Rogan]

She may have got the false impression of a fiendish character with two heads - and two deerstalkers - who would be incapable of engaging normally with any woman.

Given that a deerstalker has two peaks, perhaps he just had two faces?

[caz]

Hi Caz,

Yes, it must have been a terrifying time for a woman to be on the streets on her own.

I do think JTR had some people skills and was able to put his victims at ease.

Hope you're well during these surreal times

All the best, Craig

Hi Craig,

Many thanks, I'm keeping well and hope you are too. May 2021 be a lot less surreal for everyone!

I do think the killer of Eddowes must have been able to put her at ease, assuming she willingly accompanied him to that dark corner of Mitre Square. She may have been less on her guard than other women in her shoes at the time, as she had been away hop picking and remote from the horrors of the previous few weeks. She may have got the false impression of a fiendish character with two heads - and two deerstalkers - who would be incapable of engaging normally with any woman.

Love,

Caz
X

[jerryd]

Found this in a search for "Deerstalker Hat" and thought it was interesting.

Echo
June 7, 1888

[Craig H]

I thought “whiskers” back then meant what we call sideburns. Therefore someone could have a moustache but not whiskers,

The billycock vs felt hat vs deerstalker is an interesting question. I think Wicker Man covered this well earlier in thread.

I’ll look at your other points later tonight.

Craig

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The three witnesses seem to be describing the same man, all be it with some minor differences which you would expect :

• PC Smith: The man was 28 years old, about 5 foot 7 inches. He had no whiskers. His clothes were dark. He wore a cutaway coat and a dark felt dear stalkers hat. He was of respectable appearance. He had a parcel wrapped in newspaper in his hand which was 18 inches long and 6 to 8 inches wide. They both appeared sober. The couple were talking together.
• William Marshall : The man was middle-aged, about 5‘6“ tall, rather stout, do not think he had whiskers. He was decently dressed in a black cutaway coat and dark trousers. He work a round cap with a small peak. "I should say he was in business, and did nothing like hard work". He had the appearance of a clerk. Marshall heard the man say You would say anything but your prayers" and said he was mild speaking and spoke like an educated man.
• Best and Gardner : The man was about 5ft. 5in. in height, had a had a thick black moustache and no beard. He was well dressed in a black morning suit with a morning coat; wore a black billycock hat, rather tall, and had on a collar. . He had "rather weak eyes. I mean he had sore eyes without any eyelashes". The man was an Englishman.

The highlighted differences seem more than minor to me.
Also, Best's 5'5" estimate may be a slight overestimation, given the rather tall billycock hat he was said to be wearing - Bricklayer's Arms Man may have only been about 5'3".
However, you are right that the behavior of BA Man towards Stride, is similar to that of Marshall's man.
There is also this to consider...

Best: He was hugging her and kissing her, and as he seemed a respectably dressed man, we were rather astonished at the way he was going on with the woman, who was poorly dressed.

Compare the 'poorly dressed' reference to this...

Abraham Heshburg: None of us recognised the woman. I don't think she belongs to this neighbourhood. She was dressed very respectably.

Could we infer from this that Stride was well dressed for a working class woman, whereas BA Man was a well dressed man of the middle class?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Careful, Craig. You'll be called a fringe theorist if you argue for the ripper behaving like this, or indeed being anywhere near Berner Street that night.

Or you might just have your suggestion dismissed out of hand...

It's very simple. Absolutely nothing can be read into what Best and Gardner said. Zero.

[Craig H]

Jon, thanks for your interesting ideas. I’ll try and summarise the scenario. Interested in others feedback.

The hypothesis is that Stride was with the same man from 11 pm to 1 am when she was killed.

Three credible witnesses who saw her were:

• PC Smith (12:30 pm): saw the couple in Berner Street on Settles street (north of Commercial Road and almost opposite Berner Street) "I saw her face and I think the body at the mortuary is that of the same woman"
• William Marshall (11:45 pm): saw the couple at 58 Berner Street (between Fairclough-street and Boyd-street) He recognised her and said she had a black jacket and skirt, and a black bonnet.
• Best and Gardiner (11 pm) : saw the couple at the Bricklayers Arms "I have been to the mortuary and am almost certain the woman there is the one we saw at the Bricklayers Arms"

Stride’s body was found at 1.00 a.m. This suggests PC Smith saw her just before she was killed. While it is possible Stride separated from the man Smith described, and was attacked by another man, the short time frame makes this unlikely.

The three witnesses seem to be describing the same man, all be it with some minor differences which you would expect :

• PC Smith: The man was 28 years old, about 5 foot 7 inches. He had no whiskers. His clothes were dark. He wore a cutaway coat and a dark felt dear stalkers hat. He was of respectable appearance. He had a parcel wrapped in newspaper in his hand which was 18 inches long and 6 to 8 inches wide. They both appeared sober. The couple were talking together.
• William Marshall : The man was middle-aged, about 5‘6“ tall, rather stout, do not think he had whiskers. He was decently dressed in a black cutaway coat and dark trousers. He work a round cap with a small peak. "I should say he was in business, and did nothing like hard work". He had the appearance of a clerk. Marshall heard the man say You would say anything but your prayers" and said he was mild speaking and spoke like an educated man.
• Best and Gardner : The man was about 5ft. 5in. in height, had a had a thick black moustache and no beard. He was well dressed in a black morning suit with a morning coat; wore a black billycock hat, rather tall, and had on a collar. . He had "rather weak eyes. I mean he had sore eyes without any eyelashes". The man was an Englishman.

Both Marshall and Best & Gardner commented on the couple’s behaviour :

• William Marshall : he noticed the couple as they were "standing there for some time, and he was kissing her". "I did not hear the woman say anything, but after the man made that observation she laughed" (The observation was "anything but your prayers")
• Best & Gardner : "He was hugging her and kissing her, and as he seemed a respectably dressed man, we were rather astonished at the way he was going on with the woman, who was poorly dressed". Best & Gardner also commented that they were "chipping" (?? meaning ? teased, stirred ??) the man. The man was acting awkward, throwing "sidelong glances into the bar, but would not look anyone in the face"

The affectionate behaviour is another reason why it may be the same man. It also reminds me of Lawende’s description of the man with Eddowes “saw a man and a woman talking quietly. The woman had her hand on the man's chest” but in a friendly way.

Again, it suggests JTR had people skills or else knew the victims who seemed comfortable with him.

This man was also similar to the description provided by Lawende :

• Lawende : Height 5’ 7-9. Fair complexion. Small fair moustache. Red necktie. Rough/shabby. Wearing a loose pepper and salt jacket and grey cloth cap. Slightly later versions have the moustache as ‘full’.

If we think the three witnesses are describing the same man, then Best & Gardner’s description that the man had "rather weak eyes. I mean he had sore eyes without any eyelashes” becomes more important. Best & Gardner had the most time to look at the man, and notice details, so their description is likely to be realistic.

As Jon mentioned, the symptoms (“weak eyes, sore eyes, no eye lashes”) suggest the man had madarosis. The causes of this illness, at that time, included leprosy and syphilis. The latter may be a motive – JTR may have believe he caught syphilis from prostitutes and wanted revenge.

The other reason the “no eyelashes” description is important is it also matches “peculiar eyes” description of others close to when other victims died :

• Harry Bowyer (the night before Kelly died) : saw a man talking with Mary Kelly in Millers Court. He was 27 – 28 years old, had a dark moustache and very peculiar eyes. His appearance was rather smart and attention was drawn to him by showing very white cuffs and a rather long white collar, the ends of which came down in front over a black coat.
• Sarah Lewis & Mrs Kennedy (the night before Kelly died) : were standing outside the Britannia and approached by a man. They noticed the unnatural glare of the man's eyes.

If this man was JTR, and he had unusual eyes / no eyelashes, then it reduces the pool of potential suspects.

What are your thoughts ?

[Wickerman]

Those photo's do seem to represent "Weak eyes", and if the eyelids droop like that I can imagine it making your eyes water, so the "unnatural glare" could be watery eyes.

Incidentally, the other feature that was not mentioned by PC Smith, likely because the suspect was standing still is, an "awkward gait", as he walked.
The same man who accosted Mrs Kennedy (and was outside the Britannia) was said to have an "awkward gait" as he walked.

Coincidentally, on the morning of Chapman's murder one man was seen running away, along Hanbury St. in the direction of Brick Lane about 6:00am, he had a peculiar gait.

John Thimbleby, coppersmith in Hanbury's brewery, went to the Commercial-street-station at one o'clock yesterday to say that at six o'clock that morning a man attracted his particular attention before he heard of the murder. He was hurrying from Hanbury-street, below where the murder took place, into Brick-lane. He was walking, almost running, and had a peculiar gait, his knees not bending when he walked. (This is a peculiarity of "Leather Apron's" gait). He was dressed in a dark stiff hat and cutaway coat, reaching to his knees. His face was clean shaven, and he seemed about 30 years old. Thimbleby says he can identify him.
Lloyds Weekly, 6 Sept. 1888.

We can't say for sure if all these descriptions are the same man, but as yet we are not able to rule it out.

[erobitha]

An example of Bilateral Madarosis.

[Craig H]

Hi Caz,

Yes, it must have been a terrifying time for a woman to be on the streets on her own.

I do think JTR had some people skills and was able to put his victims at ease.

Hope you're well during these surreal times

All the best, Craig

[caz]

...However, JTR may have invested time so the women were at ease and he took them to a quiet area...

Careful, Craig. You'll be called a fringe theorist if you argue for the ripper behaving like this, or indeed being anywhere near Berner Street that night.

I think it's entirely possible that he invested a bit of time to put prospective victims at their ease, at least after Chapman's murder, when everyone was talking about a lone madman who was preying on local women out alone at night. Chapman was the third such woman to be horribly murdered since early August. After 8th September, people must have been worried sick about when he might strike next. Certainly the author of the Dear Boss letter 'promised' another one and was very soon able to crow about the accuracy of this prediction in the related 'double event' postcard. By 30th September, any woman who was not desperate to go off with a strange man for the price of a meal, drink or bed, would have been wise to think twice before putting herself in danger. If the ripper was smart, he'd have been aware that he might have to put on the charm for the next one.

While Stride may have been flattered initially by the attention of a stranger, I doubt she'd have wanted to be alone with one, anywhere too quiet. Could be that she made her way to the club that night, where there was music and dancing going on, reasoning that there would be plenty of help on hand if she needed it, but less chance of the man risking an attack there if he was the murderer. If her killer did invest the time to put her at ease, he'd have been mighty pee'd off if she turned out to be a 'knife teaser', refusing to go off with him somewhere a lot quieter. A refusal would also have alerted him to her concerns that he might mean her harm. A recipe for a swift kill and away on his toes.

Love,

Caz
X

[Trevor Marriott]

You’re a misery guts, Trevor.

You don’t have to be the centre of every conversation

how about you let other people have a conversation without sticking your nose in it

It pains me to read such twaddle being discussed

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Craig H]

You’re a misery guts, Trevor.

You don’t have to be the centre of every conversation

how about you let other people have a conversation without sticking your nose in it