How do Suspects compare?

[Bridewell]

No, arguably, it does help his candidacy because the family and Macanghten (a Cricket tragic) knew all this -- and a humoungus lot more than we ever will -- and yet they couldn't, posthumously, get Montie off.

Hi Jonathan,

Perhaps I'm being thick here, but "get Montie off" what exactly? Was anyone running around London accusing MJD of being the Ripper? No. Did the press immediately draw the conclusion that the drowned lawyer/doctor pulled from the river was JtR? No. So why is there a need to "get him off" anything? As far as I know the only reason that anyone thinks MJD might be the killer is MM's own remarks. He's creating a diversion to draw suspicion away from someone who wasn't a suspect in the first place - so why bother?

Sorry Phil but the Wicker Man and I are in rare concord, just on this aspect.

I stand by what I wrote before about cautioning as to whether secondary sources can know more than primary ones on this issue -- plus Tabram was never claimed by Mac to be one of Druitt's murders.

Apologies if I've misunderstood your point , but Phil was talking about MJD's involvement in cricket, wasn't he? Cricket match reports are not a primary source about the Whitechapel Murders, but they are a primary source about cricket matches.

Regards, Bridewell.

[mariab]

The Nov 12 Daily Telegraph discusses stories with a black bag. That's where Birch was in with Packer, Bachert and Mortimer. In a newspaper. Not in real life.

Got that. I was just messing with Lynn. ;-) (Hard to imagine Packer, Bachert, and Mortimer all together with a black bag, unless drugs were involved – vs., say, Wess' cigar trade.)
(And by the by, Roy, did you catch the sketches of William Morris in Iceland I posted on another thread?)

Birch's story is in the Star Oct 6.
The Echo, Nov 24 is where Henry Birch and Matthew Packer were together on Commercial Road and saw a man. In real life. (see post #263 this thread)

Many thanx to How for posting the newspaper clipping on post #263 with Packer and Birch apparently having seen a “suspect“ “together“. Very suspicious. That's precisely why I mentioned the false testimony brought over by the 2 sisters also living in the neighborhood. Cuz it sounds eerily similar and related.

Pertaining to folks patrolling the streets pair-wise, look at what the Star of Oct. 6 reports:
A correspondent who was in Whitechapel last night says that detectives were walking in Commercial-road in couples, being followed by men in uniform. Some of the detectives were dressed up as dock laborers, and the disguise according to this observer was clumsy. These detectives follow every suspicious-looking person. Two of them noticed a man and woman drinking coffee at a stall. They followed the couple, arrested the man, took him to Angel-alley, and searched him, and then let him off. This correspondent while going through the streets was importuned by several women. One begged twopence of him to make up her night's lodging. Another seems to have been one of the decoy women which a private firm of detectives have out in order to try and catch the murderer.
Do we have any documentation that the 2 detectives in action might have been Le Grand and Bachelor or on which “private firm“ used women as decoys?

And here the Birch testimony, also from the Star of Oct. 6:
A WOMAN HAD BEEN SET UPON by a man, and that her cries had attracted a number of others, whose efforts to capture her assailant led to the gang story. The miscreant escaped in the direction of Commercial-road. That was about eleven o'clock. Not later than a quarter-past eleven a man stepped hurriedly into a yard entrance at No. 2, Little Turner-street, Commercial-road. On one side of the yard is a milk stand. The man asked for a glass of milk, and, when served, drank it hurriedly, then, looking about in a frightened manner, asked if he might step back into the yard. The proprietor, Henry Birch, did not object, but presently, his suspicions being aroused, he stepped towards the man and found him drawing on a suit of new overalls over his ordinary clothes. The pants were already on, and he was stooping to take a jacket from A BLACK SHINY BAG that lay at his feet when Birch stepped up to him. He seemed to be very much upset by the interruption, and for a moment could not speak. Presently he said, "That was a terrible murder last night, was'nt it?" and before Birch could answer he had added, "I think I've got a clue," and, snatching up his bag, he disappeared down the street. Mr. Birch then thought he might be a detective, adopting a disguise for some purpose, but the police believe he was the man who assaulted the woman in Cambridge Heath-road, and that he donned the overalls to mislead anyone who might be tracing him. They have the name of the woman referred to, and her description tallies with that given by Birch of his mysterious caller. The clothing was described as a blue serge suit, and a stiff but low hat. He wore a stand-up collar and a watch-chain. He wore no beard, but A SLIGHT DARK MOUSTACHE, and his face was evidently sunburnt. Birch says he thought he was a seafaring man, or one who had recently made a long voyage. When he got the overalls on he had the appearance of an engineer. Many points of this description correspond so well to that given of the man who made such pointed inquiries about women at the Nuns Head Tavern, Aldgate, last Saturday night, and also to another description the police have received, that they are inclined to connect the man with the latest murders. THE ONLY QUESTIONABLE POINT appears to be in regard to the hat, and it is just there that the theory of his frequent disguises comes in. It is deemed possible also that what a neighbor in Mitre-square thought was a light paper parcel may have been a black shiny bag, which with the light of the street lamp upon its glazed surface might easily have misled one. It is from a combination of the descriptions above referred to that the police have formed a pretty good idea of one man they would like to find.
Birch's story sounds about as realistic and plausible as Packer's. I wonder if the initial story about the woman being attacked by a man fleeing towards Commercial Road is not referring to the Stride/BS/Schwartz incident in a garbled fashion.
Notice also the "questionable point about the hat“. Incidentally, immediately as next comes an interview with William Marshall during the Stride inquest. Which reminds me of J. Best's and John Gardner's testimony about the man seen with (potentially) Stride in the doorway of the Bricklayer's arms and the different hats involved.

[Roy Corduroy]

Henry Birch is who we were discussing. Tom asked for more info.

Birch's story is in the Star Oct 6.

The Nov 12 Daily Telegraph discusses stories with a black bag. That's where Birch was in with Packer, Bachert and Mortimer. In a newspaper. Not in real life.

The Echo, Nov 24 is where Henry Birch and Matthew Packer were together on Commercial Road and saw a man. In real life. (see post #263 this thread)

This started when Jonathan mentioned Druitt possibly "changing attire." I thought of Henry Birch and the story he told of just such a man.

For a Pamphlet send a self addressed stamped envelope to:

Roy Corduroy
14 Mud Island Cutoff
Trailer D
Care of the Flora-Bama Lounge

[mariab]

"together forever"

You're a hopeless romantic, Lynn. ;-)

[lynn cates]

together

Hello Roy, Maria. Well, together in the same article. They belong together.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

German phonetics

So Bachert and Packer together? Birds of a feather.

Hello Lynn. You're mixin' your “Brchs“. It's Bruch/Birch. There were also 2 (twisted) sisters who testified about Stride's flower supposedly being found on the next day. Can't cite their names as I don't have my notes/mags here in Bavaria.

Not sure if Roy is joking when referring to Packer and Bachert mentioned “together“ in an article.
PS.:Daily Telegraph Nov. 12, I'll read that sometime. (Not now while I'm in training though. :-))

[Roy Corduroy]

So Bachert and Packer together?

Not exactly, they were both mentioned in a news article.

Matthew Packer and Henry Birch were together. See article post #263 of this thread courtesy Howie Brown.

Roy

[lynn cates]

Gleich und gleich . . .

Hello Roy. So Bachert and Packer together? Birds of a feather.

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

Henry Birch is in three articles contained in the Casebook Press Reports -

Star Oct 6

Daily Telegraph Nov 12, where he is discussed along with Packer, Mortimer and Bachert in a Black Bag-o-Rama

Te Aroha News (New Zealand) Dec 1

[Roy Corduroy]

No problem, Tom. Here is the 1881 census household



And the map 1 is Dutfields Yard, 8 is Little Turner St (the address was #2)
COMM is Commercial Road

[Tom_Wescott]

That's what I meant, Wickersticks. I just said it backwards.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

If he was in league with Packer, it would be worth learning more about him.

It is worth learning more about him in order to access if he might have been in league(?) with anyone.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Roy, I hate to keep bugging on this matter. Do you know anything further on Mr. Birch - his first name? His residence at the time? If he was in league with Packer, it would be worth learning more about him. If some work has already been done, I wouldn't want to have to repeat it. Also, I have no idea how far Little Turner St. is from Berner Street, so I wasn't aware they were close.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Roy, thanks for that very interesting grid. But I don't see Mr. Birch and Packer being in the same neighborhood? Birch was a witness following Nichols, and Packer following Stride. I'd find it odd the two would be together in order to witness a suspect, and would agree on the identification. Do you happen to know Mr. Birch's residence? Was it close to Packer?

P.S. What's the significance of The Old Rose? Also, I see James Street on your map. For some reason that's ringing a bell.

Tom, on the map, Packer was at the red #1 next to Dutfields Yard. Birch was #8, at 16 Little Turner St. The November Echo piece said the sighting occurred along Commercial Road, which you see at the top of the map. Apparently they were out about that night on their home turf.

The Old Rose is a pub down by the St George East church. Was just a little quiz question I did at Howie's and one thing led to another. Hence the map which Rob helped fill in the numbers.

Roy

[Robert]

"My grandma could have caught that in Kate's pinny!"

I'll s'thee!