How do Suspects compare?

[lynn cates]

study

Hello Maria. Right. New posters might get confused and take me seriously.

I saw a study in which there were multitudes of brothels in London--and thousands of prostitutes.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

I suppose the problem with old posters is that everyone knows what we are to say before we say it. (heh-heh)

And new posters can misconceive it badly.

I'm not sure why a brothel--in a house--would pertain to Liz?

Was just interested logistically/statistically how many brothels were available in proximity to Berner Street.

(By the way, the paper you found referred to a side job I have. 2 pay rates.)

Yes I know, you've already told me. I just couldn't resist making a funny.

PS. Just booked a Hotel for 4 nights in London in early May for a bit of research, just under 250-pounds. Need to book the Eurostar now.

[lynn cates]

mind reading

Hello Maria. I suppose the problem with old posters is that everyone knows what we are to say before we say it. (heh-heh)

I'm not sure why a brothel--in a house--would pertain to Liz?

(By the way, the paper you found referred to a side job I have. 2 pay rates.)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

original Quote mariab:
and wanted to ask if anyone knows to which brothel this refers. I'm sure this would interest Lynn in particular.

Hello Maria. I assure you that, at my age and advanced condition of decrepitude, a brothel article is not too interesting to me. (heh-heh)

He he, Lynn. I'll have to admit I was hoping for your reaction when formulating the post above accordingly. But seriously now, what I was referring to was your doubts about Stride having been a prostitute. (And by the by, when I came upon the invoices accidentally mixed up in the AFs you sent me in Chicago referring to “long and short visits“, I have to admit my first thought was “Lynn is seing escorts?“. :-) Hastily adding that I'm kidding here, before Whitechurch butts in and accuses me of “misandry“ and whatnot.

Plus I'd like to add (this referring specifically to Mike Hawley, Wolf Vanderlinden, and Simon Wood) that research is still pending on my side pertaining to SY and the Pinkertons in Chicago.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

This is a response to Mike Hawley's post to me (#189) way back on page 19.

Wolf! How's it going? I see you're following me everywhere I post on Casebook. Participating in cyber-bullying are we?

If you consider correcting or pointing out the errors in your posts to be “cyber-bullying” then perhaps you should reconsider posting here on Casebook. Your sensibilities would seem to be a bit too delicate for the strain of being wrong much of the time.

The only reason I did not add this is because it was not pertinent to my point.

Your point was, I believe, that there is evidence outside of American newspaper reports that prove that Tumblety was arrested as a suspect in the Whitechapel Murders and that the letter by Smith, a Canadian Government source, was proof of this. The fact that Smith’s information is wrong, and confuses Tumblety with another man entirely, is, I would think, a highly important detail and one that shows how reliable Smith’s information really is. To state that you edited this information out of your post because “it was not pertinent to my point” is disingenuous and misleading.

You are insinuating that I am hiding something.

No, actually, I’m saying it outright.

Actually, people like Wickerman will automatically embrace your statement because he's a minimalist when it comes to Tumblety. Wickerman, why not read Roger Palmer's article to see the multiple factoids that Vanderlinden not only got wrong but used these misconceptions to bolster his arguments. So, do you still think Tumblety was never in Toronto for decades prior to the murders? I see you're now singing a different tune when it comes to Anderson soliciting information from US Chiefs of Police. ...yet you still think Crowley initiated. Amazing. So, do you still think Dunham was the origin of Colonel Sothern?

Research in this field, as everyone knows, is ongoing. I have never stated that I, or anyone else for that matter, knows, or has discovered, every single last bit of information about Tumblety and I certainly have never suggested that my articles, published some 7 years ago, were the very last word on the subject and should be carved in stone for all eternity. However, much of what R.J. Palmer has written about my work is based on his Tumblety biases and the fact that I dared to point out errors in the accepted Tumblety theory. This, obviously, suits your purposes and you like to quote from Palmer’s writing, and believe everything he writes is Gospel, while, apparently, failing to see, or not wishing to see, the many errors in facts and logic found in those writings. Again, this suits your purposes.

Here is the huge difference between myself and someone like you, Mike: I am looking for the facts and the truth, as far as it can be known, and when new, and apparently factual, information is presented I adjust my ideas and views accordingly. This kind of mental flexibility is invaluable for anyone who wants to be a writer, researcher or historian, especially if they want to be trusted as a non biased source. You, much like R.J. Palmer, however, have absolutely no flexibility when it comes to this subject and you seem to think that anyone who does is somehow showing weakness and that this is some sort of victory for you if they “sing a different tune.” That you do not see this as one of the strengths of objectivity doesn’t surprise me.

Your narrow and rigid view, one that ignores information, facts, and data that go against, and even disproves, what you wish to believe, is the worst form of subjectivity and bias and you have proved yourself to be more a propagandist then competent writer/researcher. Almost everything you say about Tumblety must be read with caution and an Everest of salt because of this. Harsh? See below.

Nowhere does it say Smith got his information from the Ottawa article on Tumblety. Vanderlinden states it as if it were fact, but it actually does not stand up to scrutiny.

Actually, what I said was “the likely source” for Smith’s information was the Ottawa newspapers, which is true, but I hardly stated it as a fact.

I can only make one reply, but there's more. Read the article again, it says nothing about Tumblety:

The Ottawa Free Press (Canada)
19 November 1888
HAVE THEY GOT HIM NOW?
A Doctor Arrested by Scotland Yard Detectives
IS HE THE WHITECHAPEL FIEND?
He Resembles the Gentleman Seen With the Latest Victim
London, Nov.19--[Special]--Over London the Whitechapel murders wtill hang like a pall. Arrests of suspect have ben numerous, but one after another they have been discharged. Great importance, however is attached to an arrest made on Saturday. The Birmingham police have lately watched a man whom they suspected because of his habit of travelling to London on Saturdays. On the arrival of the train at Euston station he stepped out of the carriage briskly and was at once arrested and taken to Scotland Yard for examination. What gives particular force to the suspicion is that the prisoner is a doctor formerly holding a good position and large practice, but recently living in lodging houses. He greatly resembles the "gentleman" seen in company with the latest victim on the morning of the murder. Should he prove to be the criminal, the police will at once be rehabilitated.

So, how did Smith even know about Tumblety when Ottawa papers did not discuss Tumblety? You brush this off by saying newspapers in North America, but how did a man from Ottawa receive the US papers so quickly? If he did somehow find out about Tumblety, then why did he connect it with the Eutson Station story?

The above is telling. I stated that Smith likely got his information from the Ottawa newspapers. You respond by posting one article from one Ottawa newspaper, which doesn’t mention Tumblety, and then state that since this one article from this one paper doesn’t mention Tumblety then, therefore, “the Ottawa papers did not discuss Tumblety.”

Unfortunately for you, however, in 1888 Ottawa had 8 newspapers – 6 English language and 2 French – so your “evidence” that the Ottawa papers didn’t discuss Tumblety is ludicrous, if not deceptive (much like your providing “evidence” that it was Anderson who contacted Chief Crowley of San Francisco by comparing only 2 San Francisco newspapers when there were at least 6 SF papers that ran articles on Crowley’s activities regarding Tumblety. Three of these state quite clearly that it was indeed Crowley who contacted Scotland Yard and not the other way around, and one of these, the one which perhaps offers the best evidence of this, was not even mentioned by Palmer. I have to wonder why both you and he ignored this inconvenient fact?).

You also seem unaware, or wish to ignore, that Canadian papers, then as now, subscribed to news services from around the world and so information from American and British sources was telegraphed to, and appeared in, Canadian newspapers on the same day that they appeared in the countries of origin. Smith’s incorrect information, therefore, didn’t have to come from actual US or British papers so the timing is not an issue.

We do know Tumblety hung out in Birmingham on the weekdays and went to London on the weekends. You conveniently failed to tell everyone about this? How did Smith know this in order to connect him with the Euston station arrest?

This is false. We don’t “know” anything of the kind and I can think of no evidence to prove it. As you state, however, that I “conveniently failed to tell everyone about this” please provide me with the evidence is that this is true.

Wickerman, I have a number of additional discoveries about Smith that I will eventually be publishing about. First and foremost, you'll see Vanderlinden has mislead Tumblety nonexperts again.

The above is also telling and typical. Smith’s information about Tumblety is wrong. This has been pointed out to you several times. You ignore this. Newspaper articles from Birmingham in which Birmingham reporters interviewed the Birmingham Police about their surveillance of the Euston Station Suspect (which prove that the man wasn’t Tumblety and so Smith was wrong); provide information about his professional background (which prove that the man wasn’t Tumblety and so Smith was wrong); and offer a description of the man (which prove that the man wasn’t Tumblety and so Smith was wrong), have been posted and discussed with you. You ignore these.

Instead you research and find extraneous and irrelevant details about Smith – his office was down the hall from the Prime Minister’s – and believe that this, somehow, makes the fact that his information about Tumblety is wrong magically disappear. This is delusional. Worse, it’s a delusion expressly designed to delude others. No wonder you want to publish this since you seem to have made it your mission to “mislead Tumblety nonexperts” with just this kind of crap offered as research and theory.

Wolf.

[lynn cates]

brothels and birds

Hello Maria. I assure you that, at my age and advanced condition of decrepitude, a brothel article is not too interesting to me. (heh-heh)

The aviary angle is new on me. Sounds rather like the "Dead Parrot" sketch.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Many thanks to Roy, Tom, and Wickerman for clarifying things. I presently can't check The Police Gazette of Oct. 19, but I just checked the subsequent article in The Daily Telegraph of Nov. 12, as cited by Wick. It indeed claims that the Buck Row "suspect“ noticed by “a dairyman“ (AKA Birch) fitted the physical description Packer gave for his “grapeman“. Quoting The Daily Telegraph of Nov. 12:
The characteristics of this individual corresponded with the description given by Packer.
I'd say Birch necessitates intensive research (Who was he? With whom was he acquainted? Can we find out if he had worked for anyone else in Whitechapel? I could even attempt looking at his bank account – if, by miracle, any such thing has survived, and that's a big if). The question that wanders right now through my mind is, could it possibly be that we just got a link between Berner Street and Buck's Row pertaining to a certain suspect who put his foot big time into the Berner Street investigation?

Another thing that holds my interest is that Mortimer's sighting of Leon Goldstein and his “black bag“ was still being instrumentalized in the press long AFTER Goldstein got cleared. I wonder what Lynn would think of this.

As for Bachert's alleged sighting of another “suspicious man with a black bag“ at the Three Nuns Hotel Aldgate, I assume this was on the night of Sept. 30? I wish I had read the article on Bachert in NIR #1, and I'll most certainly read it soon.
(Apologies for the hastiness, but I just got in in my apartment in Berlin after traveling all day by train from Bavaria.)

Below I'm quoting something else that got my attention in The Daily Telegraph of Nov. 12, and wanted to ask if anyone knows to which brothel this refers. I'm sure this would interest Lynn in particular.
MARLBOROUGH-STREET. - DISORDERLY HOUSE PROSECUTION. - Alfred and Amelia Becker were charged on remand with using a certain portion of a house in Berners-street for immoral purposes. The complaint was that of a medical man on the ground floor of the house, who had been greatly annoyed by the woman taking strange men upstairs. - The defence was that they came in for the purpose of purchasing birds from an aviary on the upper floor, but this defence was abandoned.

[Wickerman]

Quite right Tom.
Those interested can check out Police Gazette of 19 Oct. and the subsequent article in the Daily Telegraph, 12th Nov.

I guess the mark of being harmless in Whitechapel is limited to those who carry knives up their sleeves...


Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Mr. Birch

Hi Roy and all,

For those not aware, the police circulated a sheet throughout the station houses following the double event. One newspaper got ahold of it and printed it and it gives the descriptions of BS Man and Lawendes man, as well as Mr. Birch's man, though strangely omits Pipeman. What's interesting to me is that Birch was a witness dating back to the Buck's Row murder and was not a 'double event' witness, so it's interesting he was thought of when the police put this together.

Roy, thank you for providing all of that information.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

knife

Hello Roy. Thanks. I wonder if Ead's knife was ever explained? Do we know that James was "harmless"?

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

Slice & Dice

Yes Lynn it was the same area.

Uncredibly, Maria, twice now you are snipping bits and pieces of the Oct 6 Star article to change its meaning yet again, so I will leave you to that.

Roy

[mariab]

Maria, in the Star Oct 6 Henry Birch's story of the man changing clothes at his milkstand happened the night after the Nichols murder. The same night of a documented incident when a woman was attacked near Foresters Music Hall on Cambridge Heath Road. Near Bucks Row.(Manchester Guardian Sept 4

Oh, OK, thank you. Was that incident genuine, cuz there are also the reports about a gang-related attack which was later revealed fictitious.
The Star of Oct. 6:
A WOMAN HAD BEEN SET UPON by a man, and that her cries had attracted a number of others, whose efforts to capture her assailant led to the gang story.

Another night Birch and Packer were together on Commercial Road and saw a man, in the Echo piece.

I've heard of this, but not really buying it.

[lynn cates]

Henry James

Hello Roy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that location near Buck's Row--isn't that close to where Henry James--the "harmless lunatic"--was spotted several times?

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

Yes I saw the Morris sketches. Thank you or sharing, Maria.

Maria, in the Star Oct 6 Henry Birch's story of the man changing clothes at his milkstand happened the night after the Nichols murder. The same night of a documented incident when a woman was attacked near Foresters Music Hall on Cambridge Heath Road. Near Bucks Row. (Manchester Guardian Sept 4)

Another night Birch and Packer were together on Commercial Road and saw a man, in the Echo piece.

Roy

[lynn cates]

fantasy

Hello Maria.

"You're a hopeless romantic, Lynn."

Indeed. I still have fantasies about Dr. Stanley. I mean, vi-a-vis the ripper.

Cheers.
LC