Did The Victims Carry Weapons?

[Wickerman]

You make a good point, but the lack of ability or mind-set to use a knife effectively, does not mean that there would be no motive for carrying one.

Exactly Bridewell.
These poor women are not about to debate the logic of carrying a weapon when they are repeatedly beaten and mistreated by any number of ruffians, and the odd client.
People who are desperate do not consider the practicalities, if it makes them feel secure, so be it!

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

...But of course, since the occupation came with risks then as now, knives and other weapons may of course have been carried before too. And the press would not have written about it then, methinks!

Bravo! precisely so Fisherman.
Prostitutes were oppressed by street gangs as purely part of their choice of occupation, and such stories were not newsworthy before the Ripper scare.

I'm glad you came to the same conclusion Christer.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

What makes you conclude that Tabram might have carried a knife Wickerman?

Maria.
To suggest, "maybe Tabram carried a knife", is not drawing a conclusion.

Regards, Jon S.

[Bridewell]

Good Point

Hi Errata,



knowing where to stick a knife is not enough, you also have to be ready and able to use it. Normal people have no trained or acquired reflexes to use a weapon in a life-or-death situation, especially when they are on the defensive, i. e. faced with a situation where they get attacked by an armed offender without having their weapon ready. I bet 90% of us wouldn't know what to do in this case, and so did the Ripper victims should they have carried weapons on their person (which I doubt).

Regards,

Boris

Hi Bolo,

You make a good point, but the lack of ability or mind-set to use a knife effectively, does not mean that there would be no motive for carrying one. When her house was burgled, my elderly mother proposed to keep a garden fork in her bedroom to defend herself with. I pointed out that she would never use it, but an intruder might, and she very sensibly changed her mind. The fact remains that my poor old mum, who could never have used such a weapon, against anyone, in any circumstances, had still proposed to keep one handy. I merely wonder why the Ripper victims appear not to have made a similar decision in the face of a very real threat.

Regards, Bridewell.

[bolo]

Hi Errata,

I've carried any number of knives on my person, from day to day to working at renaissance festivals. I even once sheathed a 32 inch sword down my bodice. And I'll be damned if I can figure out where you can stick a bowie knife that it would be both concealed and available at times of need.

knowing where to stick a knife is not enough, you also have to be ready and able to use it. Normal people have no trained or acquired reflexes to use a weapon in a life-or-death situation, especially when they are on the defensive, i. e. faced with a situation where they get attacked by an armed offender without having their weapon ready. I bet 90% of us wouldn't know what to do in this case, and so did the Ripper victims should they have carried weapons on their person (which I doubt).

Regards,

Boris

[Errata]

I've carried any number of knives on my person, from day to day to working at renaissance festivals. I even once sheathed a 32 inch sword down my bodice. And I'll be damned if I can figure out where you can stick a bowie knife that it would be both concealed and available at times of need.

[bolo]

Hi all,

I think trying to determine wether the victims carried weapons or not is a waste of time. If they did, it obviously did not help them at all.

Being able to defend yourself is not a matter of the right weapon but the right mindset. If you haven't learned (either by experience or training) how to switch to survival/defense mode without thinking twice, even the most powerful weapon in your hands will be useless.

Regards,

Boris

[Bridewell]

About carrying weapons: Maybe the victims did - and Jack took them away with him!
He was rummaging their pockets, and we don't know what he took away, as it didn't appear in the lists of belongings made at the post mortems.

Hi K,

That's what I was thinking. It seems strange that there were these women telling the press that they carried weapons, that many prostitutes do carry weapons, and yet (apart from the kitchen knife & spoon with Eddowes) no such item is recorded among the possessions of the various victims. I would have expected some kind of blade, however old & rusty, either tucked into a boot or concealed in a sleeve.

Regards, Bridewell

[mariab]

The snag, though, is that as these women spoke to the press of their arms, we had moved into the Ripper scare era that was not there as Tabram was killed. But of course, since the occupation came with risks then as now, knives and other weapons may of course have been carried before too. And the press would not have written about it then, methinks!

Good observation, if I may.

[Fisherman]

Jon:

"In addition to this the hapless women of the streets are themselves armed with knives, and two poor creatures this morning showed a reporter two formidable bowie-knives, which they would unquestionably use upon any man who attempted violence of a deadly character.
Evening News, 14 Sept. 1888.

Another woman, in reply to a similar question, said, "Afraid? No, I'm armed, Look 'ere," and she drew a knife from her pocket. She further declared, "I'm not the only one armed; there's plenty more carry knives now."
North Eastern Daily Gazette, 3 Oct. 1888.

Some Unfortunates did carry vicious weapons, maybe Tabram had carried one. Equally then, this maybe the source of the 'dagger' which was used on her?"

Nice finds, Jon! The snag, though, is that as these women spoke to the press of their arms, we had moved into the Ripper scare era that was not there as Tabram was killed. But of course, since the occupation came with risks then as now, knives and other weapons may of course have been carried before too. And the press would not have written about it then, methinks!

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

maybe Tabram had carried one. Equally then, this maybe the source of the 'dagger' which was used on her?

What makes you conclude that Tabram might have carried a knife Wickerman? Just the fact that allegedly 2 knifes were used on her? Are we completely at 100% sure that the "dagger" was not the same knife as before, used with more blunt force to penetrate her sternum/heart? (Though I tend to accept it as a fact that 2 different weapons were used if the contemporary docs insisted so much.) By the by, interesting pics you have posted in the other threads about the so called Victorian "bayonette", which looks completely like an (attachable) dagger to me. I'm more familiar with French bayonettes from the French Revolution and Napoleonic era, which are long, thin, and distinctive.

Wikipedia is your friend - look for 'sex positions'.

Gee, it's a sad day when one's required to learn about sex in Wikipedia! Makes me wonder what the hell I'm doing on a serial killer site with the nerds. LOL.

[K-453]

Wikipedia is your friend - look for 'sex positions'.

"In the basic standing position, both partners stand facing each other and engage in vaginal sex. In order to match heights, the shorter partner can, for instance, stand on a stair or wear high heels. It may be easier to maintain solid thrusts if the woman has her back to a wall."

Reading the second sentence, I thought of the steps leading into the yard of No. 29 ...


About carrying weapons: Maybe the victims did - and Jack took them away with him!
He was rummaging their pockets, and we don't know what he took away, as it didn't appear in the lists of belongings made at the post mortems.

[Wickerman]

In addition to this the hapless women of the streets are themselves armed with knives, and two poor creatures this morning showed a reporter two formidable bowie-knives, which they would unquestionably use upon any man who attempted violence of a deadly character.
Evening News, 14 Sept. 1888.

Another woman, in reply to a similar question, said, "Afraid? No, I'm armed, Look 'ere," and she drew a knife from her pocket. She further declared, "I'm not the only one armed; there's plenty more carry knives now."
North Eastern Daily Gazette, 3 Oct. 1888.

Some Unfortunates did carry vicious weapons, maybe Tabram had carried one. Equally then, this maybe the source of the 'dagger' which was used on her?

Regards, Jon S.

[harry]

Just yesterday I read of a case in which a woman had pulled a penknife from her stocking.Folded of course.

[curious4]

I'm aware of the various theories as to how, physically, Victorian street-walkers conducted their business. Can we be sure that penetration from the rear was invariably the "line of attack", so to speak?
There is nothing to stop a prostitute from saying, "Yes, I will, dearie, but not from behind until they catch Leather Apron. You can't be too careful these days".

Yes, they were desperate, but they were also streetwise, surely?

Hello Bridewell,

I am convinced that the "reverse" position would have been impractical for the victims. Apart from all the layers and layers of clothing which would have had to be put out of the way, this position would be most comfortable with hands on knees for some support, and with the head positioned against the wall, they would be at severe risk of concussion with an enthusiastic customer. Hands in front of head against the wall? They would have to arch the back in a very uncomfortable way (tried this - on my own lol) and who is to hold up the clothing? Presumably the client would need the use of at least one hand? Much more practical to stand facing each other and just raise the skirts at the front. I fail to see how a womanīs legs would be any longer bending down, so presumably said customer would have to bend a little at the knees anyway. I once saw an interview with a giant married to an average sized girl, and when asked the obvious question, he replied that "God, in his infinite wisdom put the important bits in the middle."


If anyone were likely to adopt the "hands, knees and a a bompsy-daisy" position, it would have been the so-called Park prostitutes, who would also have had the additional option of supporting themselves against a park bench. These women were old, diseased, toothless and not good to look upon, so I can imagine their customers preferred not to look at their faces, while Jackīs victims still had the vestiges of good looks left - comparatively speaking.

Way off thread here, hope I will be forgiven. As for weapons, I donīt think any would have helped - they obviously trusted Jack and the attacks were quick and sudden. Traditional womenīs weapons through the ages? Half a brick in a handbag was apparently popular in the 1940īs, hatpins in the Edwardian era (I bought an antique one for my niece - it was almost a foot long and VERY sharp - lethal) and the traditional pepperpot.

Best wishes,
C4