Did The Victims Carry Weapons?

[Robert]

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4100

[Robert]

We have two sketches of victims' boots. One is Eddowes :

http://photos.casebook.org/displayim...album=35&pos=7

and the other one is the Kelly sketch showing her boots before the fire, which I can't locate just now.

[bolo]

Hi Jon,

So what do we have here then, another one throwing the "liar" card down?

...and again I stumble over some English phrase that I picked up somewhere but should have back-checked before use... with "the story holds no water" I want to say that the idea of an East End woman carrying a genuine Bowie on her person (concealed, even) does not sound very plausible.

I do not call the author of the article a liar but wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that he was or at least fell for some tall story of a couple of East End women who tried to bolster themselves up.

Just wanted to talk about Bowies and there we are now...

Regards,

Boris

[Errata]

Errata:

Sorry I'm a newbie...please educate me...



Which of our victims were wearing which?

Dave

Well probably none wore either. Victorian women's shoes are brutal, but these ladies likely had the more working class ankle boot, which kind of looks like a short combat boot with a slightly higher heel. Half inch maybe. At least those who weren't wearing men's boots, which you still can't stick a decent sized blade in.

[Cogidubnus]

Kinky boots

Errata:

Sorry I'm a newbie...please educate me...

Sure, with knee boots it's easy. Try it with ankle boots with one inch heel

Which of our victims were wearing which?

Dave

[Wickerman]

yeah, I think the Bowie knives story holds no water.

So what do we have here then, another one throwing the "liar" card down?


The term "Bowie-knife" covers a wide range of large knives, there never was a particular design, or style. Its more of a colloquial term than anything else.
Just a large knife!

Jon

[Errata]

A "lady" of my aquaintance once showed me a dagger type knife approx 6 inches long, complete with cross guard, which she wore tucked down the top of her (just below the knee) boot...

Dave

Sure, with knee boots it's easy. Try it with ankle boots with one inch heels.

[Cogidubnus]

A "lady" of my aquaintance once showed me a dagger type knife approx 6 inches long, complete with cross guard, which she wore tucked down the top of her (just below the knee) boot...

Dave

[bolo]

Errata,

the back of the tip area of the knife in the Hickok picture is not as pronounced as in other variants but the typical elements (soft back with stop to counter attacks, long and very strong blade, sharp "v" tip, etc.) are there.

Maybe it's an early version or a Bowie-type knife, the design was much imitated.

Anyway, I think we both agree that East End prostitutes probably did not carry long-bladed weapons like that around so the article may be a colourful fabrication.

Regards,

Boris

[Errata]

Hi Errata,



yeah, I think the Bowie knives story holds no water. As you already mentioned, real Bowies are quite large, as we can see in this well-known picture of "Wild" Bill Hickok:



There are smaller versions as well that have a blade length of about 6 inches but even those would be difficult to conceal for a 19th century woman.

That's why I go with a combination of a) and d). Maybe the jourmalist responsible for the article indeed did interview some East End women with knives and then simply added a bit of colour to the story to make it more interesting. "Formidable bowie knives" sounds much cooler than, say, "table knives stolen from a doss house kitchen", after all.

Regards,

Boris

Yeah, I'm actually pretty sure that's not a bowie knife. Bowie knives have a cross guard on the hilt and a clip point blade. Really it's the cross guard that blows it for concealment, because it gets tangled in clothing.

Hickock appears to be carrying a giant carving knife. I have never in my life seen a Bowie knife that long, and typically Bowie knives are a bit wider. That thing qualifies as a short sword. Although to be fair, that could be a custom piece that is an altered Bowie knife, more suited for cutting up large animals. Like buffalo.

Although the knife Bowie uses in the remake of The Alamo also isn't right. The original Bowie knife looked like your modern carving knives, but wider and with a cross guard.

The other problem with the story is that Bowie knives as a commercially available thing was pretty new. It wasn't until after the Alamo that people started selling them. So they weren't really massed produced until the 1840's, and as close combat knives that were necessary in the American west, they wouldn't have been terribly popular in England until the Wild West fever hit them, and that was about a decade before Buffalo Bill started touring Europe in 1887. A new type of knife that was maybe only 10 years old would not be available to prostitutes.

[caz]

And of course, such claims could have been aimed at making the killer think twice - or anyone else for that matter who thought these women were fair game.

Love,

Caz
X

[bolo]

Hi Errata,

I think that either a: the article is pure fiction b: they weren't bowie knives, or anything like bowie knives c: these women didn't carry the knives with them or d: they weren't street walkers and they were stashing the knives in their rooms in a brothel.

Which would mean that the article applied to street walkers and their habits not in the slightest.

yeah, I think the Bowie knives story holds no water. As you already mentioned, real Bowies are quite large, as we can see in this well-known picture of "Wild" Bill Hickok:



There are smaller versions as well that have a blade length of about 6 inches but even those would be difficult to conceal for a 19th century woman.

That's why I go with a combination of a) and d). Maybe the jourmalist responsible for the article indeed did interview some East End women with knives and then simply added a bit of colour to the story to make it more interesting. "Formidable bowie knives" sounds much cooler than, say, "table knives stolen from a doss house kitchen", after all.

Regards,

Boris

[Errata]

Ah, I see, sorry for the confusion. You could wear in a shoulder holster beneath one of your armpits or tape it on your back between the scapulae (some special unit guys do just that) but of course that wouldn't be feasible with most types of modern clothing, let alone typical 19th century gear. If you want to go for a dramatic effect, hold it between your teeth...

Oh, and may I recommend a good-quality switchblade knife for your purpose of easy concealment and drawing.

Regards,

Boris

Yeah, but in this article it talks about these prostitutes showing off these big bowie knives. Now I've spent some time in Victorian clothing, and there just isn't a place to stash a bowie knife where it would be concealed, and where you could get to it. A table knife, sure. Most daggers, fine. Stilettos, no problem. Bowie knife almost as wide as my hand... no.

I think that either a: the article is pure fiction b: they weren't bowie knives, or anything like bowie knives c: these women didn't carry the knives with them or d: they weren't street walkers and they were stashing the knives in their rooms in a brothel.

Which would mean that the article applied to street walkers and their habits not in the slightest.

[bolo]

Good points all, but what I was actually saying is that I have no idea where I would store a bowie knife on my person. It's too wide for boot or cleavage, too heavy for thigh, and the waist is right out what with all the bending and the wearing of dresses.

Ah, I see, sorry for the confusion. You could wear in a shoulder holster beneath one of your armpits or tape it on your back between the scapulae (some special unit guys do just that) but of course that wouldn't be feasible with most types of modern clothing, let alone typical 19th century gear. If you want to go for a dramatic effect, hold it between your teeth...

Oh, and may I recommend a good-quality switchblade knife for your purpose of easy concealment and drawing.

Regards,

Boris

[Errata]

Hi Errata,



knowing where to stick a knife is not enough, you also have to be ready and able to use it. Normal people have no trained or acquired reflexes to use a weapon in a life-or-death situation, especially when they are on the defensive, i. e. faced with a situation where they get attacked by an armed offender without having their weapon ready. I bet 90% of us wouldn't know what to do in this case, and so did the Ripper victims should they have carried weapons on their person (which I doubt).

Regards,

Boris

Good points all, but what I was actually saying is that I have no idea where I would store a bowie knife on my person. It's too wide for boot or cleavage, too heavy for thigh, and the waist is right out what with all the bending and the wearing of dresses.