E Petitions and Ripper Files and papers

[Jason]

Apropos of ledgers and registers listing documents and files, there are many preserved at Kew. On their own they may not tell us much and in many cases the material listed probably no longer exists. But the entries are tantalising nonetheless.

[ATTACH]12855[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]12856[/ATTACH]

what is this document Stewart ? my eyesight isnt great so is there anyway i can zoom in on it ? where do i find it ?

[PaulB]

[QUOTE=Carol;194303]

Doing a Trevor and inserting your replies in someone else's post isn't helpful and should be avoided.

Hi Paul,

Judging by the above I can only say I'm very sorry I upset you so much. I'll tell you why I did that. The simple reason is that I am not very 'savvy' when it comes to all the various 'specialities' one can do when writing on this site. I can tell you that it took me at least half an hour of attempting to 'do it posh' and how I eventually wrote my mail was the best I could come up with. THIS IS THE TRUTH!

I would be very grateful if you could tell me how to do it 'properly' so that I don't upset you needlessly again. Thank you.

Carol

You didn't upset me at all, Carol, it's simply that inserting answers within another person's message makes responding more protracted because one can't easily distinguish whose message it whose. To include the other person's post just click on the "Quote" button.

[curious4]

Nobody is being labelled a crank for supporting an appeal for freedom of information.



Except that conspiracists will always claim that there is information which is being held back.



It isn't and nobody has claimed that it is, but the ledgers apparently also contain the names of police informants and the MPS has claimed that modern day informers could be deterred from giving information if they believed that at some time in the future their names will be made public. So far this opinion has been upheld.



If you think the petition will persuade anyone to release unseen data, then sign it. Nobody is stopping you. But it is as well to know what one is signing and why.

Hello PaulB,

Sorry, but I find your arguments a little weak. Would a modern-day informer - if such is the case - really be put off by the fear of it coming out 130 years in the future? Please! And it´s ok to sign a petition if it is "acceptable"? Who decides?

Since I left England I often get the impression that basic rights have been a little weakened - take the age of responsibility as one example - one gets the impression that we´ll be back to hanging seven-year-olds for stealing sheep soon! However, signing a petition in any country and for whatever reason is still legal, I take it?

Frankly I found your last remark offensive and just a tad threatening.

Regards to all,
C4

[curious4]

[QUOTE=Carol;194303]

Doing a Trevor and inserting your replies in someone else's post isn't helpful and should be avoided.

Hi Paul,

Judging by the above I can only say I'm very sorry I upset you so much. I'll tell you why I did that. The simple reason is that I am not very 'savvy' when it comes to all the various 'specialities' one can do when writing on this site. I can tell you that it took me at least half an hour of attempting to 'do it posh' and how I eventually wrote my mail was the best I could come up with. THIS IS THE TRUTH!

I would be very grateful if you could tell me how to do it 'properly' so that I don't upset you needlessly again. Thank you.

Carol

Don´t worry Carol, I was the founder member of of "doing it my way because computers sometime defeat me" brigade! Shows that some of us can think outside the box!

Good for you,
C4

[PaulB]

Hello PaulB,

Sorry, but I find your arguments a little weak. Would a modern-day informer - if such is the case - really be put off by the fear of it coming out 130 years in the future? Please! And it´s ok to sign a petition if it is "acceptable"? Who decides?

First of all, as very clearly stated, it isn't my argument, it's one of the arguments put forward by the Metropolitan Police Service for refusing to open the material to the public, and it has been upheld by the FIA tribunal. If you don't agree, you can take it up with them, which is in effect what you are doing by signing the petition.

Since I left England I often get the impression that basic rights have been a little weakened - take the age of responsibility as one example - one gets the impression that we´ll be back to hanging seven-year-olds for stealing sheep soon! However, signing a petition in any country and for whatever reason is still legal, I take it?

Nobody has said it isn't legal to sign a petition or that anyone shouldn't sign this petition. All that's been said is that the wording of this petition is factually inaccurate and too imprecise to make any impact whatsoever on the bureaucratic machine and that it is therefore possibly a lost opportunity.

Frankly I found your last remark offensive and just a tad threatening.

Really? I don't see why. You are free to sign whatever you like and nobody. least of all me, is suggesting otherwise, but isn't it wise to understand what you are signing and why you are signing it?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Stewart,

Saying Jack the Ripper never existed is not the same as saying that one or more unknown killers never existed. JtR was a handy contrivance.

What makes you certain the name Jack the Ripper was coined by the press?

"What, exactly, are the 'unpublished files, documents and papers relating to these murders'?"

Tut tut! This old ploy has whiskers on it. I'm certain the petition would have been more specifically worded had the authors known the answer.

I cannot be certain these documents do exist. You cannot be certain these documents don't exist.

The difference between us is that I want to find out.

Regards,

Simon [but you can call me cranky]

[PaulB]

"What, exactly, are the 'unpublished files, documents and papers relating to these murders'?"

Tut tut! This old ploy has whiskers on it. I'm certain the petition would have been more specifically worded had the authors known the answer.

I cannot be certain these documents do exist. You cannot be certain these documents don't exist.

The difference between us is that I want to find out.

No, the difference between you is not that you want to find out and by implication Stewart doesn't, the difference is that Stewart doesn't think the facile and inaccurate wording on this petition will achieve the objective, or that anyone will be encouraged by it to reveal files that nobody knows exist.


The difference is that Stewart

[Simon Wood]

Hi Paul,

I was writing to Stewart.

Why are you getting so hot under the collar?

Regards,

Simon

[PaulB]

Hi Paul,

I was writing to Stewart.

Why are you getting so hot under the collar?

Regards,

Simon

I wasn't aware of having said anything to intimate that I was getting hot under the collar, and I am aware that you were addressing Stewart on an open forum, but I am bored with Stewart and I being attributed with views and opinions we don't have by people like you who ought to know a hell of a lot better. To suggest that Stewart, of all people, isn't interested in accessing any piece of information on this and numerous other cases of interest is ludicrous.

[Carol]

Hi Paul,
How you have outlayed your post number 140 is what I was trying to do yesterday. I'm going to have another go at it. I was pressing 'Quote' but I could not get the various little paragraphs to separate.
Carol

[Carol]

Good morning everyone,

Not been on here since yesterday....so whats happened since ? anybody called somebody another bad name ? any "mum" jokes thrown in yet ?

Looking forward to todays entertainment !!

Ding ding, round 9.................

Good morning Jason (sorry, afternoon)

Hi Paul,
How you have outlayed your post number 140 is what I was trying to do yesterday. I'm going to have another go at it. I was pressing 'Quote' but I could not get the various little paragraphs to separate.
Carol

Will this work?

[Trevor Marriott]

#128

FAO Stewart

I am sure it is just an oversight on your part having regard to the volume of messages going back and forth this morning.

But you dont seemed to have replied to #128 message. Perhaps you would be so kind as to reply as soon as you have a spare moment

[Carol]

Good morning Jason (sorry, afternoon)



Will this work?

Hi everyone,

It worked, didn't it. Now I've got to try and remember how I did it. Please bear with me but this is important to me. Thanks.
Love
Carol

[Carol]

Hi everyone,

It worked, didn't it. Now I've got to try and remember how I did it. Please bear with me but this is important to me. Thanks.
Love
Carol

Hi all,
It didn't really work, did it. Not as I wanted it to.
I'll have another try tomorrow.
Love
Carol

[Stewart P Evans]

Semantics

Hi Stewart,
Saying Jack the Ripper never existed is not the same as saying that one or more unknown killers never existed. JtR was a handy contrivance.
What makes you certain the name Jack the Ripper was coined by the press?
"What, exactly, are the 'unpublished files, documents and papers relating to these murders'?"
Tut tut! This old ploy has whiskers on it. I'm certain the petition would have been more specifically worded had the authors known the answer.
I cannot be certain these documents do exist. You cannot be certain these documents don't exist.
The difference between us is that I want to find out.
Regards,
Simon [but you can call me cranky]

Hi Cranky, The first part of the above is an exercise in semantics.

A long study of all the known relevant material has led me to believe that the name 'Jack the Ripper' was a press invention first used in the 'Dear Boss' letter. Of course, you are entitled to your own beliefs, many of which, I don't doubt, are at variance with mine.

Whatever do you mean by 'an old ploy'? Or are you now suggesting that I am part of some conspiracy or other? Did I say, specifically, that certain documents don't exist?

If an application is submitted, or indeed a petition is raised in respect of, certain documents, those documents have to be specified. There is absolutely no point in referring to 'hitherto unpublished files, documents and papers relating to these murders', without specifying exactly what is being referred to. Especially when they may not exist anyway.

But, of course, it is obvious that you, and some others, have no idea whatever of the nature of the official files, official protocol, official responsibility and the correct ethics involved in official procedures.

As for suggesting that I 'don't want to find out', I would venture to suggest that I have found out a lot more than you about this case over the years. And I still hold material you have never seen.

I should like to thank Paul for his support on my behalf, he obviously does understand what is correct and what is incorrect in all this.