Was Jack or (were Jack’s) schizophrenic?

[Wickerman]

Hi all,

John Douglas later revised his opinion that the killer "dressed to impress" after speaking to other experts who suggested that the victims were more likely to be deterred by anyone who appeared conspicuously out of place.

Thats very reassuring, that so many modern experts knew that well-dressed men in Whitchapel never had any success with streetwalkers.
(where do these guy's get their education?)

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

MPD sufferers can have as few as two and as many and several hundred different personalities............Someone would know that Jack was in there somewhere, and since that personality would threaten the core, the one they were all created to protect, they would either try to "kill him off", or they would tell someone. If Jack the Ripper had MPD, we would know who he was by now. One of the personalities would have ratted him out to save the core.

Hello Errata.
Thankyou for an interesting post.
Let me ask you then, considering numerous people were being accused of being Jack the Ripper, how would this play out in the real world?

Wouldn't this JtR personality simply be another one of the accused, and perhaps be investigated and let go like so many were?
There was never any evidence to go on, one wonders what was there to investigate. In many cases all they had to do was demonstrate a bonafide address and perhaps occupation and they were released.
So are you saying this JtR personality could not have been one of them?

Also, who would one of those 'other' personalities accuse?
In other words how would personality #2 accuse personality #3 of being Jack the Ripper?
There were so many instances of people accusing their cousins, brothers, neighbours, and even admitting themselves to being Jack the Ripper.
How would you accuse yourself?, by accusing your 'other' personality?
Isn't this what happened in some cases?
We all think they were nutcases, but maybe they had this disorder?

Many of the personalities are mission oriented it's true, but they were created to complete tasks the core personality finds frightening or stressful.

We have a handful of stories where people (men) expressed distaste at those streetwalkers, couldn't being in their presence be a trigger for stress on the part of the patient?

... there is absolutely no guarantee that any personality will be the next up, or that the perceived self is going to reassert any time soon. So if there was a Jack the Ripper personality, there is no guaranteed way to switch him off.

Correct, which means the patient cannot control it's appearance, time of day, day of week, etc, no consistency.
Is there something consistent about these crimes which argues against this?

So it could be literally years before the self "comes to" again.

But is that not just guesswork?, what I mean is, it is not like saying all MPD's stay in one of their personalities for months or years at a time, they don't.

Thankyou for making the effort to explain MPD, I appreciate you have your doubts, I am just not so sure it can be ruled out.

All the best, Jon S.

[Ben]

Hi all,

John Douglas later revised his opinion that the killer "dressed to impress" after speaking to other experts who suggested that the victims were more likely to be deterred by anyone who appeared conspicuously out of place. His ultimate conclusion, that the ripper was David Cohen or someone very much like him, suggests that he did not support the idea that the killer belonged to a class above his victims, or was accustomed to dressing well, or that he held down a respectable job etc.

All the best,
Ben

[curious]

One of the personalities would have ratted him out to save the core.

Fascinating.

But if the "others" thought the core and thus all of them would hang, would someone rat him out or would they perhap stuff him down and not allow him back out?

And therefore provide us with why the killings stopped?

curious

[Errata]

There is always the possibility that this killer suffered from a multiple personality disorder..

Regards, Jon S.

I think this is pretty unlikely. It's one of those diseases where it works on paper, but probably not in real life.

Here's my argument.

MPD sufferers can have as few as two and as many and several hundred different personalities. Many of the personalities are mission oriented it's true, but they were created to complete tasks the core personality finds frightening or stressful. For example, there is often a personality who only gets trotted out to drive. Or to cook. But it is always tasks that are necessary to the continued survival and function of the collective. There almost always a personality dedicated to defense. And typically it is one of the oldest. But there is a threat trigger necessary to bring out this personality, and while capable of violent defense, rarely capable of random violence.

The biggest problem inherent in the disease is that despite excellent resource division as far as assigning tasks to personalities, there is absolutely no guarantee that any personality will be the next up, or that the perceived self is going to reassert any time soon. So if there was a Jack the Ripper personality, there is no guaranteed way to switch him off. And even if he was switched off, there is no guarantee that the man would revert back to his perceived self. He could go through 100 personalities without the self showing up again. So it could be literally years before the self "comes to" again.

The real caveat in MPD killers is that while the perceived self rarely is aware of other personalities, and the core never is, all of the other personalities have some awareness of the others. And there is always one (or more) who knows about everyone else. And what they did. MPD is a giant and extremely complex coping mechanism, but nothing is ever truly lost or inaccessible. Someone would know that Jack was in there somewhere, and since that personality would threaten the core, the one they were all created to protect, they would either try to "kill him off", or they would tell someone. If Jack the Ripper had MPD, we would know who he was by now. One of the personalities would have ratted him out to save the core.

Although on the whole it really is a remarkable disease.

[Errata]

Here is a partial list of known serial killers who were actually schizophrenic:
Rob H

Awesome. Although some of them I disagree with because of either seemingly exclusionary behavior or possible other source of delusions.

Otis Toole was a severe epileptic with a low IQ. Post-ictal delusions are not at all uncommon in people with severe epilepsy, and the low IQ could easily lead to delusional persistence. At the time he was diagnosed, we knew almost nothing about the relationship between epilepsy and schizophrenia, so I think it is possible that while delusional, he was not actually schizophrenic.

Gacy I think likely was not simply because it would bordering on an abundance of riches, so to speak. He clearly had a couple of severe personality disorders, clearly was a sadist, clearly had paraphilias. There was little evidence of any paranoid delusions, yet he enjoyed playing games and was far too organized to qualify as hebephrenic. If he was ever delusional, it was either drug related, or to a brain injury he had as a teenager.

Fish was too organized and too capable of expressing and feigning emotion.

Chikatilo I think was not, and the only times I have seen it referenced was by some layperson attached to the case who seemed to use the word "schizophrenic" to mean insanely unacceptable behavior, as opposed to the actual disease.

Kemper I think was not, but unlike most others I think that he was not the one who sought the diagnosis, but his mother did. I think that her opinion on what she perceived to be massive problems with his mental health led to the diagnosis, and only after being out of her control did it get challenged. I believe by the time he was released the diagnosis had been dropped. His mother clearly had invested quite a bit into the notion that he was dangerous, even as a small child.

There seems to be a sort of dichotomy in my own opinions on schizophrenia and serial killers. To an extent, body collectors and cannibals seem almost too emotionally involved to be schizophrenic. But Jeffrey Dahmer was clearly delusional. I think it comes down to the fact that Schizophrenia is a specific disease with specific symptoms, and not all delusions are the result of schizophrenia. Capgras Syndrome for example is a fun one. Jerusalem Syndrome is another good one.

If you ask me if JtR's killing spree could be based on delusions, I would say absolutely. If you ask me if it could be based on Schizophrenic delusions, I would say yes, but far less likely.

[Wickerman]

Thank you, Jon.

I don't think a poor person working or living in that area would have tried a wealthy disguise,...

Hello Mary.
I don't think so either, they barely had two pennies to rub together. So anyone suggesting that a poor person might suddenly decide to buy a tux and go on a murder spree is completely out of touch with reality.
I would be inclined to believe that this is not what John Douglas meant.

Douglas must be referring to someone who had means, had a job, like maybe a clerk, was used to being decently dressed, but made an extra effort to step-it-up in his appearance whenever he felt like it.
So Douglas's Ripper was perhaps familiar with the East end but did not actually live among the lowest of the low.

There is always the possibility that this killer suffered from a multiple personality disorder..
Quote:
"A person suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder undergoes change in personality in just a few seconds. The patient then acts as a completely different person than he/she is in reality, the patient imitates characteristic and behavioral traits, name, history etc. of the person he/she thinks he/she is. People suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder sometimes undergo change in personality where they have alters of different genders, sexual orientations, ages, or nationalities.

The symptoms of this disorder are:
Patients suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder loose memory in the form of major chunks. They do not remember things happened in their lives over an extended period of time or sometimes they forget what had happened with them between particular periods of time. For example, people forget everything about their childhood or sometimes they forget about whatever happened during a time period say some 3-4 year of time. When a person alters and a different personality dominates them, they do not remember what they did after they become normal."

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/9-24-2004-59666.asp

I know this is drifting a little from Schizophrenia, but we might need to look for some mental disorder that allows the patient to be in full control of all his senses yet have no recollection after the fact.

I don't know, just offering things to ponder. The characteristics of the crimes tend to suggest the killer was perfectly sane while committing the crimes yet, the end result suggests he had to be insane.

Regards, Jon S.

[GregBaron]

Interesting discussion...

Good posts Rob and Errata. This is the kind of discussion and/or debate I was hoping for. I think the mental condition of the killer is important in how we analyze the crime scenes. I think if we think him organized we may impart more than is really there. And of course as Rob pointed out, some schizophrenic serial killers show evidence of organization. Of course his mental condition is speculative but what isn’t in this case? Anyway, whether schizophrenic or not or organized or disorganized I think most agree the killer was awfully lucky on more than one occasion……….


Greg

[robhouse]

I would describe Jack the Ripper as follows:

disorganized lust murderer, 5-6 victims in 4 months, severe mutilation, evisceration of 3 victims, took organs from 3 victims, probable cannibalism away from crime scene, some characteristics of organized killer are possible (?)

It is unknown if Jack the Ripper was insane (schizophrenic), but he clearly shares many of the traits of the above listed schizophrenic serial killers. This is why the FBI concluded the Ripper was probably schizophrenic when they did their profile in 1988.

RH

[robhouse]

Here is a partial list of known serial killers who were actually schizophrenic:

Richard Chase - Disorganized Lust Murderer (DLM), schizophrenic, 6 victims in 1 month, mutilation (disembowelment), cannibalism and drinking blood, organ removal

Tsutomu Miyazaki - 4 victims in 1 year, severe schizophrenia, listened to “impulses,” necrophilia, cannibalism, mutilation

Hadden Clark - 2-15 victims, paranoid schizophrenic, masturbated in front of nephews, cannibalism, attempted necrophilia, mutilation

Marc Sappington - 3-4 victims, schizophrenia and drug use (PCP), drank blood of victims, cannibalism. Auditory command hallucinations to commit murder

Herbert Mullin - disorganized lust murderer, paranoid schizophrenic, 13 victims, mutilation and disembowelment of one victim, auditory commands to kill.

Ed Gein (not technically a serial killer, because he only had 2 victims), schizophrenic, necrophiliac, dismemberment, possession of a body

Robert Napper -paranoid schizophrenic, post mortem mutilation (severe), took organ as trophy, disembowelment, planned murders (organized), mutilation of one victim said to be similar to JTR's mutilation of Mary Kelly

Otis Toole - diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic (I think), necrophilia, mutilation, very low IQ, cannibalism

Raman Raghev - chronic paranoid schizophrenia, killed homeless people in their sleep

Juan Corona - diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, 25 victims in 6 weeks, All of the victims were stabbed and mutilated viciously about their heads with a machete. All bore a deep puncture to the chest followed by two slashes across the back of the head in the shape of a cross.

Kenneth Erksine - Apparently a schizophrenic. Killed 7-11 elderly people over a span of 4 months. Held in Broadmoor. No mutilation. Strangled and raped victims. Unknown is rape was before or after death.



Others who were probably (or possibly) schizophrenic

James Clayton Lawson - Disorganized lust murderer. Cannibalism, horribly mutilated at least one victim, then tried to eat the sex organs.

"Warren" - (pseudonym used for a serial killer discussed in "Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives") - paranoid schizophrenic, auditory hallucinations (?), mutilation, cut off breasts of victim

John Wayne Gacy - possibly borderline schizophrenic

Albert Fish - unknown if schizophrenic, cannibalism

Gary Heidnik - apparently schizophrenic, poor hygiene, kept body parts in kitchen

Andrei Chikatilo - I have been unable to find out if he was schizophrenic, although I have seen one source claim he was. Claimed 53 victims, cannibalism, mutilation of victims, evisceration, targeting sexual organs.

Edmund Kemper - diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic at age 15, although later psychiatrist claimed he was not schizophrenic. Kept body parts.

Several traits seem to be common: namely, frequent disembowelment and mutilattion of their victims, often targeting the sexual organs. Several also took organs away from the bodies, and many engaged in cannibalism.

As noted, both Peter Sutcliffe and David Berkowitz apparently faked insanity.

Rob H

[Errata]

My gut inclination is to agree with you here Errata. Excellent post by the way. However, and I know some give little credence to profilers, some ‘experts’ have no problem with these murders being the work of a schizophrenic. We know there are many types of the illness and many stages and a man like Koz, being very young, would be in the early stages of the affliction. I see no reason why in a lucid period he couldn’t carry out such atrocities. Again, I don’t know, no one does really but I think it’s a pertinent question. I also think sometimes too much is made of the murderer being able to engage the ladies. These women were poor desperate, often drunk and operating in near darkness. I think if a regular bloke comes up and says ‘I have a sovereign will you do _____?’ a slurred ‘yes’ would quickly follow. Even if some quiet conversation is required this isn’t out of the wheelhouse of some schizophrenics. Schizophrenics may be only 1% of the population but say Whitechapel had 400,000 people (just guessing) that would be 4000 walking around - at least until they threw them in Colney Hatch. As I said before, many of our suspects are schizophrenics and some were known to be violent. I just don’t think the door is closed on this idea yet. Please feel free to lambast, ridicule and berate.

Greg

I would not lambast ridicule or berate. Merely disagree or possibly correct.

It's true, there are experts who don't have a problem with JtR being schizophrenic. There are schizophrenic serial killers. Not many, but it does happen. However, if you look at the crimes of these killers, they are astonishingly disturbing in both their violence, staging, and ritualistic aspects (not ritualistic in a religious sense, but in more of a compulsive sense). It is more common to find schizophrenic spree killers, possibly because of the lack of impulse control during a delusional period.

It is also important to note that there is a difference between schizophrenic serial killers, and serial killers whose lawyers argued that their client was schizophrenic. Certainly Son of Sam was not schizophrenic, and did not hear voices. He goes back and forth between claiming he did, and laughing about how everyone fell for that stupid dog story.

One can certainly look at the murder of Mary Kelly and see the level of overkill and ritualism schizophrenics serial killers have shown in recent years. And many experts look at that one crime and diagnose from that. But there were four other murders (at least) that show no sign of such a frenzy.

One of the problems I have encountered with profilers and their assessments of mental illnesses is a glaring lack of consideration for the daily experience of the average sufferer. Schizophrenia is absolutely a disease that ramps up. Some more quickly than others. Early symptoms are much less severe than later on in life. This does not mean however, that early stage schizophrenics are perfectly functional and capable.

There are certainly cases in which the delusions persist in the non psychotic periods. Jared Loughner for example developed theories and hatreds in a delusional state that persisted. In his non delusional periods, he accepted his delusional fantasies as truth. He couldn't distinguish between the delusions and reality, because he didn't know he was having delusions. Therefore there was never a period when Jared Loughner was well. Just periods where he was more acceptable than others. John Nash was the same.

The reality of every schizophrenic I have ever known has been one of dread, delusion, and depression. In the increasingly rarer periods when they are not delusional, they are extremely depressed, completely amotivated, often suicidal. All they seem to be able to is mourn the loss of time, of function, the loss of their mind, and sit around waiting for it to start all over again. Even if there was someone who they really thought just needed to die, they couldn't dredge up the energy to get up and go do it.

The biggest and most significant truth of schizophrenia is that non delusional does not mean asymptomatic. Schizophrenia is primarily a disease affecting cognition. How you think, how you process sensory information, how you react and respond to stimuli, how you socialize, how you process emotion. The delusions are almost secondary. And we know schizophrenia is structural (affecting the actual structure and function of the brain) and chemical (affecting the control of and reaction to neurotransmitters). The cognitive symptoms do not disappear with the delusions. They fade, but they don't disappear. A schizophrenic who is asocial during a delusional phase does not suddenly hop up and go party when the episode passes. They still are not that motivated to see out company, they are however more tolerant of it.

And the only thing that improves cognitive function is treatment and medication, and these were not available in Victorian England.

The case for JtR being schizophrenic has to be a case of exceptions. He would have to be a schizophrenic who simply didn't have certain symptoms that are diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia. Which is possible, any profiler or doctor could say "sure.. he COULD have been schizophrenic" but it is vanishingly unlikely. The statistics just don't back it up.

The argument against Kosminski being schizophrenic is pretty simple really. Disorganized schizophrenics have what is known as a "blunted affect". They show little to know emotional response to anything. In Kosminski's hospital records, they describe significant mood swings, even throwing a chair at an orderly. That is a series of emotional responses that the disorganized schizophrenic is incapable of. He had to have some mood disorder component, which makes me think Schizoaffective Disorder. But that's just my opinion.

[Rubyretro]

yes, Errata, I agree with you..

[GregBaron]

Jury still out...

It's not even about slyness. Take Chapman for instance. He had to find her, kill her, take her uterus, possibly arrange things at her feet, and get out. That requires a sense of purpose and order that disorganized schizophrenics don't have. All things considered it was a pretty neat job, and clearly time management and a series of logical steps were involved. Disorganized schizophrenics are incredibly amotivated. They don't pursue goals, they don't don't plan, they don't take care of themselves, often they don't even speak. The idea that someone like that could one night decide to go hunt prey, and retrieve a specific organ from a victim in a place that without care could mean discovery is just not likely. A lucid schizophrenic is not an asymptomatic schizophrenic. They just aren't delusional.

Besides, schizophrenia occurs in slightly less than 1% of the population. There simply aren't a bunch of "wandering schizophrenics", much less violent ones.

My gut inclination is to agree with you here Errata. Excellent post by the way. However, and I know some give little credence to profilers, some ‘experts’ have no problem with these murders being the work of a schizophrenic. We know there are many types of the illness and many stages and a man like Koz, being very young, would be in the early stages of the affliction. I see no reason why in a lucid period he couldn’t carry out such atrocities. Again, I don’t know, no one does really but I think it’s a pertinent question. I also think sometimes too much is made of the murderer being able to engage the ladies. These women were poor desperate, often drunk and operating in near darkness. I think if a regular bloke comes up and says ‘I have a sovereign will you do _____?’ a slurred ‘yes’ would quickly follow. Even if some quiet conversation is required this isn’t out of the wheelhouse of some schizophrenics. Schizophrenics may be only 1% of the population but say Whitechapel had 400,000 people (just guessing) that would be 4000 walking around - at least until they threw them in Colney Hatch. As I said before, many of our suspects are schizophrenics and some were known to be violent. I just don’t think the door is closed on this idea yet. Please feel free to lambast, ridicule and berate.

Greg

[Errata]

It's interesting that the popular image of this killer has become one of a dandified gentleman, out slumming, strolling through the fog in a dashing cape...almost as if he were a magician on an expensive stage.

This case became much scarier to me when I read a more modern criminal profile of what the killer was probably like: A man of average appearance and mild enough outward manner that he did not attract attention. Their conclussion that he lived right in the Whitechapel area and therefor knew its layout, hiding places and schedules is also deeply disquieting...in that by extension, he could be your neighbor, my neighbor, etc (!!!)

I've always been convinced that the police knew the killer. Not that they suspected him, but that he was buying them drinks in taverns and talking about the case with them.

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

In Philip Sugden's book, John Douglas (Criminal Profiler)..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Douglas
suggests, "... that the killer may have intentionally dressed up to persuade potential victims that he had money and thus relieve himself of the task of initiating contact with them. Whatever, the evidence is that we will not find our man amongst the labouring classes or indigent poor"

Thank you, Jon.

I don't think a poor person working or living in that area would have tried a wealthy disguise, though...because people on the streets could simply say "Why is that guy from XXX Street suddenly dressed up like a fancy gent?" But it could have worked for a poor man from outside the area, who was visiting Whitechapel for that purpose.

For some reason, I find the idea of the killer being a Whitechapel local scarier...and sadder.

It means he turned on his own : (