Was Jack or (were Jack’s) schizophrenic?

[Wickerman]

Hi Errata.
While not meaning to derail the Schizophrenic thread, I just wanted to ask you briefly if your thesis paper included Bipolar Disorder?

I had to wonder if this thread was inspired by Kosminski with the intent of bringing forth some symptoms that might help us understand him as the principal suspect he appears to be.

On the other hand we have an apparent 'nutcase' who was known to accost women across the East end. This man, who may have had delusions of grandure has no name, but is a definite person of interest, though is willingly ignored by everybody.

Delusions of Grandeur are symptoms of both Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder.

With Kosminski we need to find a description & some activity in the East end. With the Bethnal Green man we have a description & a record of his activity in the East end, but no name.

Much to the shagrin of many, I think they are equally plausible suspects.

Regards, Jon S.

[Errata]

Hi Errata.
While not meaning to derail the Schizophrenic thread, I just wanted to ask you briefly if your thesis paper included Bipolar Disorder?
Regards, Jon S.

I tried writing my thesis on Bipolar, but since I HAVE Bipolar it was considered unsportsmanlike. Thus the switch to DID.

I think If we are going to look back and try to determine if Jack the Ripper could have been mentally ill (which he could have) then we need to decide if we need his mental illness to be responsible for his behavior. For example, there was a guy in town here who was a serial rapist. He was also Bipolar. He was not a serial rapist because he was Bipolar. The illness had nothing to do with the crime. If we do not require his mental illness to be a factor in his crimes, then it seems to me it hardly matters if he was mentally ill, but different criteria would be required.

So If we need a mental illness that would be responsible for his crimes, we need to look for diseases that either cause or inspire violence, but do not have other symptoms that would make committing the crimes more difficult. So while a catatonic schizophrenic could have violent delusions, the catatonia rules him out of killing anyone.

If we need a mental illness that did not necessarily contribute to the crimes, we simply have to discard any exclusionary diseases. Like catatonia, or hysterical blindness.

If we are looking at the mental illnesses of potential suspects, that's actually a lot more complicated. Kosminski actually has some hospital records we could look at. It's those records that lends me to believe he was not schizophrenic, but schizoaffective (think blend of schizophrenia and Bipolar). Bethnal Green Man... delusions of grandeur isn't nearly enough. Any number of illnesses can cause that, and in and of itself it is not a symptom generally lending itself to violence. Well, not towards committing violence. I'm sure they get punched in the face quite a bit.

In regards to Bipolar, could someone with Bipolar have committed these crimes? Absolutely. If it was for reasons related to the disease, it would pretty much have to have occurred in the manic phase. Which is when you get grandiose behavior, but also some people experience rage and violence in this phase. Bipolar in and of itself does not lend itself to being a serial killer. Given the transient nature of the moods, you see more spree killers with it. But Bipolar is very prone to comorbidity (being present with another mental illness) and the combination of the right ones could create a Jack the Ripper. I haven't put a lot of thought into it, but I imagine anyone familiar with mental illnesses could come up with a few.

One thing that needs to be said. In 1888 there were no medications, no therapy, no successful behavior modification. Nothing but containment. The mentally ill have no way of escaping their torment except through drink and drugs. Probably 90% of the mentally ill in 1888 are going to work very hard at drinking themselves to death. Binge drinking is still extremely common with the undiagnosed mentally ill today. Its self medicating with whatever is at hand, and thats usually booze. It doesn't work, but very few people are self aware enough to realize that in the long run they are making it worse. Someone sick enough (especially with a mood disorder) to be Jack the Ripper has a very good chance of being too drunk to have done it.

I can however make a spectacular argument that Jack the Ripper had Pica. Well, not that spectacular. But entertaining.

[Wickerman]

I tried writing my thesis on Bipolar, but since I HAVE Bipolar it was considered unsportsmanlike. Thus the switch to DID.

I think If we are going to look back and try to determine if Jack the Ripper could have been mentally ill (which he could have) then we need to decide if we need his mental illness to be responsible for his behavior.

Naturally, and because we cannot say for sure we must adopt a multiple-choice position.
If 'Yes' then select a), b), or c), etc. as optional causes.
Determining any potential clues from what we know in crime scene evidence will always be open to debate.

So If we need a mental illness that would be responsible for his crimes, we need to look for diseases that either cause or inspire violence, but do not have other symptoms that would make committing the crimes more difficult.

Yes, and the perpetrator appears to retain all his senses and decision making abilites, knowing right from wrong, the ability to avoid capture, etc. While in this 'mental' state.
Likewise, when out of 'state' he may have no memory retention, but that is not certain, especially if he lives alone.

If we are looking at the mental illnesses of potential suspects, that's actually a lot more complicated. Kosminski actually has some hospital records we could look at.

Yes, but those records are late, we have no clues as to Kosminski's mental state in 1888, at 23 yrs old.
With most suspects we have no clear knowledge of their mental state, in fact we do not know enough about any contemporary suspect to determine if they even had a mental condition.

Bethnal Green Man... delusions of grandeur isn't nearly enough. Any number of illnesses can cause that, and in and of itself it is not a symptom generally lending itself to violence.

Agreed, and, it's only a suggestion. This man may not have had any such disorders. What we read about this man may have been his natural attitude to women. And, he may have dressed normal for his status.

I can however make a spectacular argument that Jack the Ripper had Pica. Well, not that spectacular. But entertaining.

Only because you 'think' he ate those organs?

So long as we acknowledge all the caveats and do not forget we are in the realm of speculation, any conclusions just might have value.

All the best, Jon S.

[GregBaron]

What type of Illness?

I had to wonder if this thread was inspired by Kosminski with the intent of bringing forth some symptoms that might help us understand him as the principal suspect he appears to be.

Yes Wickerman, this thread was inspired by Koz and others(JI, Hyam etc…) who seem to have been schizophrenic. I was wondering if such a person could have committed these crimes or some of these crimes. Thanks to you and Errata for keeping the thread going…….it’s great that Errata seems to have a great deal of knowledge of mental illness. I remember something we used to say back in the day that if somebody does something ‘crazy’ they are crazy or if someone does something 'insane' they are insane. Crazy is as crazy does was another one. By this definition JTR was certainly insane but many of us, myself included, assumed him to have a personality disorder a la Ted Bundy. I had never considered schizophrenia and when I did it made me wonder about how that might affect our examining of the evidence. As someone pointed out, Chapman’s murder seemed fairly methodical considering the outrageous risk taking while MJK’s seems the mania of an out of control schizophrenic. I also wondered if it likely a schizophrenic would write the graffito or send taunting letters to the authorities? Just kind of thinking out loud here…….With that said, Koz, for example, at 22 in 1888 may not have experienced an episode yet so if he committed the crimes his later illness may be a moot point. Great food for thought but as usual I don’t think it gets us anywhere……………….


Greg

[Errata]

Only because you 'think' he ate those organs?

So long as we acknowledge all the caveats and do not forget we are in the realm of speculation, any conclusions just might have value.

All the best, Jon S.

Actually I think Pica has a shot because the most common causes of violence and aggressive behavior is substance abuse, certain types of poisoning, and chemical imbalances in the body.

Hypoglycemia is one, Porphyria is one, certain mineral imbalances, lead poisoning is a popular one, acid/base imbalance, acidosis, etc.

Now porphyria and hypoglycemia were known back then, and would have been diagnosed as a child (or the child simply would not have survived to adulthood), in adult onset, it also would have been diagnosed pretty quickly. Management was also known, so for someone with either to have a series of acute attacks resulting in violence would require either a deliberate departure from their diet, or an involuntary one.

Lead poisoning was nowhere near as common as it had been 50 years earlier. They knew paintresses were dying, and they figured out why. In 1888 lead poisoning was achieved either through a single or very few massive doses, typically as a child, or through the slow ingestion of small amounts of lead. Which ladies used to do to clear their complexion, but had stopped. In an adult, Pica would be a reasonable assumption for eating small amounts of lead.

Chemical imbalances can be innate, or can achieved. Acidosis for example is a not uncommon result of poisoning, or from consuming certain types of alcohol (bathtub gin for example). Mineral imbalances can be achieved by consuming things that absorb or prevent the absorption of other minerals. Or again they can be innate.

But Pica can cause all of the these things. Or aggravate them. Therefore, a case can be made that an individual with Pica could become so ill with a number of other illnesses that they become uncontrollably violent and aggressive.

But for the record, I don't think Jack the Ripper had Pica.

[Errata]

With that said, Koz, for example, at 22 in 1888 may not have experienced an episode yet so if he committed the crimes his later illness may be a moot point. Great food for thought but as usual I don’t think it gets us anywhere……………….

Greg

Well, stress, poverty, alcohol or drug use all accelerate the onset and development of the illness. If Kosminski was schizophrenic, he had become symptomatic by 22. However he may not yet have become delusional. Which would mean that he would have the disqualifying symptoms of schizophrenia (avolition, alogia, disorganized behavior, thought disorder) BEFORE he had the qualifying symptoms (hallucinations, delusions and paranoia). Which would be sadly ironic.

[Wickerman]

Hi Greg, Errata.
Seeing as how you both touch on the same thing...

....With that said, Koz, for example, at 22 in 1888 may not have experienced an episode yet so if he committed the crimes his later illness may be a moot point.

... If Kosminski was schizophrenic, he had become symptomatic by 22. However he may not yet have become delusional.

I thought I might ask something which occured to me when reading Rob House' new book on Kosminski.

What I thought was missing in Rob's book was what we might call a means to measure him by. By this I mean, because we have some medical records of Kosminski's condition in later years, was it 1892?
Would it be possible to construct some kind of timeline using other patients records (or are they private?), to help us determine the progression of his mania?

Put simply, if we locate some other patients with similar medical conditions to the records we have of Kosminski (which pertain to about 1892? or thereabouts), would we be able to backtrack in those other patients records for a span of four years and see what their condition was like four years previous.

Then, we could apply the same progression data but applied in reverse for a four year period (from 1892 to 1888).
Would such research help us to determine what Kosminski's condition 'might' have been like in 1888?
Or, is every patient so different that a 'timeline of deterioration' is never the same with every patient?

Did I make that clear?

Thanks, Jon S.

[Errata]

Put simply, if we locate some other patients with similar medical conditions to the records we have of Kosminski (which pertain to about 1892? or thereabouts), would we be able to backtrack in those other patients records for a span of four years and see what their condition was like four years previous.

Then, we could apply the same progression data but applied in reverse for a four year period (from 1892 to 1888).
Would such research help us to determine what Kosminski's condition 'might' have been like in 1888?
Or, is every patient so different that a 'timeline of deterioration' is never the same with every patient?

Did I make that clear?

Thanks, Jon S.

Well, in theory, absolutely we could do that. And we wouldn't really even patient records, since the in recent years the evolution of various mental illnesses is pretty well documented.

In practice, we could absolutely do that with any mental illness except schizophrenia and personality disorders.

Schizophrenia is out because there is no way to predict deterioration rates. There are just far too many variables. If you knew the patients life story, it could be possible, but it this case, we just can't.

Personality disorders are out because some are caused, some are innate, some we don't know (to be fair most if not all we don't know). There are people with personality disorders who never get worse, people who get better (although not cured. Successfully treated), people who slowly get worse, and people who get catastrophically worse seemingly overnight.

Barring those two (yes, the prime two) we could easily make educated guesses about onset of symptoms, period and amplitude of cyclical behaviors, rate of deterioration if any etc.

Bipolar for example, onset would be at about 18 (unless they had the much rarer childhood onset Bipolar, in which case symptoms would begin at about 2 or 3) likely would not be considered problematic until the first major manic episode, usually within six months to a year of being symptomatic. Rapid-cycling people are FAR more noticeable than their slower rate counterparts. People can age out of rapid-cycling, or with age develop longer and longer periods of depression.

So if someone were say, 22 and we knew they were Bipolar, I could say that four years earlier likely no one had noticed any mental illness, just that someone was more moody, and more short tempered. The person affected would not feel anything was particularly wrong, maybe a little more tired, maybe a little more wired. And they would be a lousy neighbor because they would stop sleeping as much during normal sleeping hours.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

In rereading some dissertations and threads Ive come across Jacob Isenschmid, Hyam Hyams, Aaron Kozminski and others all of whom were most likely paranoid schizophrenics. It made me wonder if some sort of epidemic was underway in East London or there only seems so many because they are Ripper suspects? This could only be answered by a psychologist and super statistician.

Anyway, keeping in mind the FBI fellow Douglass and many of us who say if the Ripper or Rippers wasnt Aaron Kozminski then it was someone like him, schizophrenia is something we should come to terms with. I think many of us want Jack to be a clever psychopath a la Ted Bundy. We want him to be smart and charming and one who outwits and makes fools of the police and authorities. Some of us even want him to be a Toff; handsome, sophisticated, wealthy, well dressed and a vampire phantom beyond normal human constraints. Few will deny the romance involved. The reality is probably much more mundane and seedy as real life tends to be.

Rob Houses book makes an excellent case for the existence of schizophrenic serial killers; even psychopathic schizophrenic serial killers a witches brew indeed. There is a term called lust murderers where vile disemboweling and/or other cannibalistic acts are part of the MO. The idea of multiple schizophrenic disembowel-ers trolling Whitechapel seems hard to fathom but apparently there were lots of them(schizophrenics) around. Discounting copycats and political motives, I find it hard to believe for example that the murderer of MJK wasnt a delusional schizophrenic. The overkill speaks of extremely disordered thinking. Even so, I think we also need to get away from the idea of the drooling, masturbating vagrant eating out of the gutters idea. Schizophrenics have episodes, delusions come and go, behavior is rational within whatever delusion their mind is entertaining. It doesnt mean these people cant dress themselves or take a bath or plan an event or anything of the kind. Their healthy mind is still in there and assumes control at times. I know a few on the boards have a great deal of knowledge on this subject and have given good information on other threads and can probably speak better than I on the illness. What Im wondering from you guys is how many of you believe the murderer or murderers (was/were) schizophrenic and if so - how might this change our thinking on the mystery itself?

Apologize for the long postsorry if it appears muddled..

Greg

Yorkshire Ripper debunked: New claim Peter Sutcliffe ‘did not have schizophrenia’
THE YORKSHIRE RIPPER's claims that voices from God instructed him to embark on a barbaric killing spree have been debunked by a journalist who claimed in a new documentary, he "did not have schizophrenia".


The killer claimed he was told to kill by “voices from God” from a gravestone in Bingley Cemetery, West Yorkshire.

Sutcliffe, who worked as a gravedigger in his hometown, said his eerie instructions came from a Polish grave.

However, an expert in a new Channel 5 documentary has rubbished Sutcliffe’s claims he had schizophrenia.


'The Ripper Speaks: The Lost Tapes’ centres on secret tapes of Sutcliffe made for Mark Williams-Thomas.

The veteran journalist, who presents the programme, got one of the killer’s frequent visitors while he was in prison to record the tapes.

He presented evidence of Sutcliffe’s schizophrenia claims to consultant forensic psychiatrist Dr David Ho.

Dr Ho said: “By the time schizophrenia grips a person, it’s going to be obvious.

“The behaviour often becomes erratic, perpetuated by whatever delusional beliefs.

“So, it’s unlikely a person with severe schizophrenia will be able to work and conduct life as normal.”

Three psychiatrists called in Sutcliffe’s defence at his 1981 trial each found he had “encapsulated paranoid schizophrenia”.


However, the jury in its verdict found him to be sane at the time of his killings.

Sutcliffe’s younger brother Carl also told the Daily Mail in 2015 Peter “never showed signs of schizophrenia as a child”.

Mr Williams-Thomas asked the expert about the differences between psychopathy and schizophrenia.

Dr Ho said: “Psychosis is often thought to be a symptom of schizophrenia.

“Schizophrenia is of course a severe and enduring mental illness.




“It is normally characterised by features of delusions, and also importantly it often involves a breakdown in the person’s functioning.”

The expert claimed that the incredibly violent nature of some of Sutcliffe’s killings did not match arguments that he had schizophrenia.

He said: “I understand some of the victims were injured and stabbed up to 50 times.”

Dr Ho rubbished Sutcliffe’s claims that voices from God had told him to kill, claiming that if that had been the case, the killer would have been expected to stop after one or two fatal wounds.

He added: “Given the nature of some of the wounds, that leans towards psychopathy, not schizophrenia.”




Mr Williams-Thomas claimed: “So, Peter Sutcliffe was not suffering from schizophrenia at all. He was in fact a psychopath.”


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/15...ams-thomas-spt



Aaron Kosminski was a disorganised, eccentric-looking schizophrenic.

The Whitechapel Murderer was a well-organised psychopath.


Montague Druitt was a cricket-playing barrister and schoolteacher.

He was neither a schizophrenic nor a psychopath.



Walter Sickert was an eccentric artist.

There is no evidence of any schizophrenia or psychopathy attaching to him.



Charles Allen Lechmere was a carter who lived with his wife and nine children.

There is no evidence that he ever displayed signs of schizophrenia or psychopathy.

[Wickerman]

Yorkshire Ripper debunked: New claim Peter Sutcliffe ‘did not have schizophrenia’
THE YORKSHIRE RIPPER's claims that voices from God instructed him to embark on a barbaric killing spree have been debunked by a journalist who claimed in a new documentary, he "did not have schizophrenia".


The killer claimed he was told to kill by “voices from God” from a gravestone in Bingley Cemetery, West Yorkshire.

Sutcliffe, who worked as a gravedigger in his hometown, said his eerie instructions came from a Polish grave.

However, an expert in a new Channel 5 documentary has rubbished Sutcliffe’s claims he had schizophrenia.

That claim was all over the news at the time, no-one with a pulse believed him. He was just trying to get some easy time.

[FrankO]

The Whitechapel Murderer was a well-organised psychopath.

Hi PI 1,

Although I'm not disputing the Ripper couldn't have been one, but on what evidence do you base your claim that he was well-organised and that he was a psychopath?

Apart from this, perhaps you'd find it interesting to read about Robert Clive Napper, who was diagnozed as suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and Asperger's syndrome. He killed 2 women in the early '90s, one outside in a fashion that's reminiscent of Tabram's murder and another indoors very similar to Kelly's case. And he's also believed to have committed a series of rapes as the "Green Chain Rapist".

All the best,
Frank

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hi PI 1,

Although I'm not disputing the Ripper couldn't have been one, but on what evidence do you base your claim that he was well-organised and that he was a psychopath?

Apart from this, perhaps you'd find it interesting to read about Robert Clive Napper, who was diagnozed as suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and Asperger's syndrome. He killed 2 women in the early '90s, one outside in a fashion that's reminiscent of Tabram's murder and another indoors very similar to Kelly's case. And he's also believed to have committed a series of rapes as the "Green Chain Rapist".

All the best,
Frank

I'm familiar with the case you cite.

I just had a re-read of his biography and you certainly have a point about there being a similarity between the murders of Bisset and Kelly.

So, the Whitechapel Murderer could have been schizophrenic and even had what was later called Asperger's Syndrome, but wouldn't you say both men were psychopaths, and wouldn't you agree that without some degree of organisation, the Whitechapel Murderer would have been caught?

[FrankO]

So, the Whitechapel Murderer could have been schizophrenic and even had what was later called Asperger's Syndrome, but wouldn't you say both men were psychopaths, and wouldn't you agree that without some degree of organisation, the Whitechapel Murderer would have been caught?

I’m not suggesting that the Ripper was a paranoid schizophrenic or had Asperger’s Syndrome, what I’m really saying is that we can’t know either way (schizophrenic or psychopath).
Based on the evidence we could say that the Ripper was organised in the sense that:

• He knew what he was doing
• He killed during the nightly hours of lull
• He was able to not give himself away until it was too late for his victims
• He attacked with such force and speed that his victims couldn’t fight back or cry out
• He cut the throats of his victims in such a way that he didn’t get much blood on his person
• He worked very quickly, whilst, quite probably, scanning the area around him as well (listening and glancing)
• He saw to it that he got away without being noticed
• He didn’t attract any attention to himself in-between murders

He doesn’t need to have been a smooth talker (although he could have been). As long as he posed as a punter, showed the women the money and didn’t act too suspiciously, he would be alright.

But he could also have approached his victims as the man in the article below did, which appeared in the Lloyd’s of 30 September:
Last night a correspondent furnished us with another strange story of an incident occurring early on Thursday morning, near to the scene of the four murders. He states that early in the morning a woman was sitting sleeping on some steps in one of the houses in Dorset-street, when she was awoke by a man who asked her whether she had any bed to go to, or any money to pay for a lodging. She replied that she had not, upon which he said he had money, and then gave her what she thought was two half-sovereigns. She went with him down a passage, and when there he seized her by the throat and tried to strangle her. A scuffle ensued between them, in which she screamed and got away. The next morning she found that what he gave her was two farthings machined round the edge like gold coins. She described him as being a man with a dark moustache, and dressed in a rough frieze blue overcoat.

So, in short, I agree with you to a large extent, PI1, in that JtR would likely have possessed some psychopathic traits (like lack of empathy & guilt, selfishness) and that he wasn’t all disorganised.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

Montague Druitt was a cricket-playing barrister and schoolteacher.

He was neither a schizophrenic nor a psychopath.

As he was never assessed by a professional I don’t see how you could assume this simply by reading what is available about hm? You might as well say that he didn’t suffer from depression or athlete’s foot. It’s an unknown.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

ug

As he was never assessed by a professional I don’t see how you could assume this simply by reading what is available about hm? You might as well say that he didn’t suffer from depression or athlete’s foot. It’s an unknown.

Since, as Inspector Abberline noted, there was nothing to connect Druitt with the murders, nor any reason to suspect him of having been the kind of person who could have done anything like that, it is a reasonable deduction that he was not a psychopath nor a schizophrenic.

I would humbly suggest that you, for example, would not like to have the same said about you as you have just written about Druitt, unless there were some evidence of psychopathy or schizophrenia.