The Surly Man

[belinda]

The fact remains the Inspector Abberline took Hutchinson seriously as a witness. I do not believe he would have done this if he had any reason to doubt Hutchinsons story.
The police must have checked Hutchinsons background at the time.

[Garry Wroe]

Quote:
Not in itself, Sally, no. But there is compelling evidence indicative that Mary Jane was drunk to the point of near-incoherence during the timeframe under scrutiny. According to Hutchinson, however, Kelly “was not drunk”, merely “a little spreeish.” This incongruity, I would suggest, is sufficient to cast considerable doubt upon the claim that Hutchinson met and spoke to Kelly at approximately 2-00am.

Yes, but you are working with the Hutchinson guilt bias here.

I’m unsure as to what prompts you to make such a statement, Sally, particularly since I have never accused Hutchinson of anything other than misleading the police and press. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

Objectively, what you have is two individuals, both claiming to witness a third under the influence of alcohol, over two hours apart. Firstly, perception is subjective; secondly, if both of these witnesses were indeed witnesses and did see Kelly that night, they interacted with her for a very short amount of time - a minute or two perhaps - long enough to form an accurate impression?; thirdly, two hours plus makes a difference in a state of inebriateion. I'm not so sure about the compelling evidence here.

Several witnesses, Sally, asserted that Kelly was drunk in the hours immediately preceding her death. Maria Harvey even spoke of a drinking session that began in the afternoon. On top of this, a number of witnesses described Mary Jane’s tendency to sing when she was drunk. Given her serenading of Blotchy between midnight and 1-00am, therefore, we have further inferential evidence suggestive that Kelly was under the influence when sighted by Mary Ann Cox.

As for the notion that Kelly may have sobered up during the two hours immediately following the Cox encounter, this is a physiological impossibility. Given the probability, moreover, that Kelly took her share of Blotchy’s beer, the likelihood is that she continued drinking until one o’clock – an hour, at most, before her allegedly sober encounter with Hutchinson.

Quote:
Blotchy entered Kelly’s room at approximately a quarter to midnight, Sally. This was fully two and three-quarter hours before Sarah Lewis observed the man presumed to have been Hutchinson staring intently down the court as though “looking or waiting for someone.” Had Hutchinson used Blotchy as an excuse for his fixation with Mary Jane’s room, it would have been tantamount to an admission that he was stalking Kelly.

No, I don't agree. I don't think he would have been viewed as a stalker - I don't even know if stalking had been conceptualised at the time[.]

But loitering in the pursuit of a crime had, Sally. Should you have any doubts in this respect, I would urge you to familiarize yourself with the lengths to which investigators went in order to identify the soldier questioned by PC Barrett close to the Tabram crime scene. There are several other examples besides.

As for Hutchinson - I really don't know, I'm open minded, actually - best way to be. I will say this though - if he wasn't straight up then something very odd was going on.

I’m open-minded, too, Sally. I merely follow the evidence. And in the case of Hutchinson, the evidence is unequivocal. As such, ‘something very odd’ was indeed going on.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[Edward]

Hutchinson as Lookout?

Hello All –

Has there been any discussion in regards to Hutchinson as a lookout? What if Hutchinson was acting as a lookout for the actual murderer? This could explain him loitering outside Miller’s Court for 30 minutes (or so) in the rain.

Why wait so long before giving his account to police? The inquest into MJK’s murder was held on Nov. 11. Testimony given by Sally Lewis at the coroner’s inquest indicated that she saw a stout-looking man, not very tall standing in Dorset Street looking up the court (Miller’s Court). According to her testimony, Lewis felt that the man appeared to be waiting or looking for someone. Could he have been acting as a lookout for the murderer inside Miller’s Court?

The testimony given by Lewis made Hutchinson realize that he had been observed outside Miller’s Court on the night of the murder, and that it was now part of a sworn statement. Hutchinson had to come up with a (non-incriminating) reason why he was hanging around that place at that particular time. He gave his account to police at 6:00pm the evening of the inquest. Why not invent a mysterious person to justify his (observed) presence outside Miller’s Court? He would also have to invent his acquaintance with MJK in order to account for his "concern" about her safety.

On the other hand, The Daily Telegraph did not publish the inquest proceedings until a day later, Nov. 13. Was the general public allowed to attend Coroner’s inquests?

Edward

[Fisherman]

Garry Wroe:

"in the case of Hutchinson, the evidence is unequivocal"

... which is why any discussion about Hutchinson always ends up in total chaos.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sally]

I’m unsure as to what prompts you to make such a statement, Sally, particularly since I have never accused Hutchinson of anything other than misleading the police and press. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else

Not at all, Garry. I think that's an odd response. I have no preconceptions about anybody. I take what is said at face value. It is your reasoning that leads me to that point, nothing more. You see an 'incongruity'; I am challenging that presumption - that's all. Besides, if you have accused Hutchinson of 'misleading the police and press' then you do think him guilty - of that at least. What if he was innocent of both? I think that illustrates my point.

several witnesses, Sally, asserted that Kelly was drunk in the hours immediately preceding her death. Maria Harvey even spoke of a drinking session that began in the afternoon. On top of this, a number of witnesses described Mary Jane’s tendency to sing when she was drunk. Given her serenading of Blotchy between midnight and 1-00am, therefore, we have further inferential evidence suggestive that Kelly was under the influence when sighted by Mary Ann Cox

Well, yes, ok. Kelly had been drinking. I don't think I was expressing doubt about that.

As for the notion that Kelly may have sobered up during the two hours immediately following the Cox encounter, this is a physiological impossibility. Given the probability, moreover, that Kelly took her share of Blotchy’s beer, the likelihood is that she continued drinking until one o’clock – an hour, at most, before her allegedly sober encounter with Hutchinson

No, I wasn't suggesting that she had sobered up entirely. I was suggesting that two hours can make a considerable difference. I was further suggesting that the perceptions ot two individuals may differ considerably. This may be sufficient to account for the incongruity that you refer to.

But loitering in the pursuit of a crime had, Sally. Should you have any doubts in this respect, I would urge you to familiarize yourself with the lengths to which investigators went in order to identify the soldier questioned by PC Barrett close to the Tabram crime scene. There are several other examples besides

Yes, I realise this - I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes.

I’m open-minded, too, Sally. I merely follow the evidence. And in the case of Hutchinson, the evidence is unequivocal. As such, ‘something very odd’ was indeed going onYour interpretation of the evidence. You may be right. I'm merely pointing out that there are other ways of looking at the scenario that are as logical; therefore as acceptable.

Garry, my assertion that I am open minded was not intended as an accusation that you are not - see the beginning of this post. I'm afraid I don't think the evidence is unequivocal though. What follows is a generality and not directed personally at you. I think that whilst there are some peculiarities in this Hutchinson epidode which ought to draw our attention, it is all to easy to build a case on shadows. I don't think that's necessary - the facts are enough to warrant explanation.

I have no axes to grind, Garry. My argument - if it can be called such - will always be with reasoning solely.

Regards

Sally

[Rubyretro]

Rubyretro - You think? I think he comes across as somebody with a colourful imagination!

A colourful imagination -yes, certainly; but more than that to retain all the details of the clothes and then build on them to the press. I would think that this is a person who has rehearsed the description in his mind before making a Statement to the Police. I've already given the reasons why I think that Hutch made up Surly/A Man, and if he invented and rehearsed the details, then those details had a significance in his mind. I don't think that an invented 'groom' story would be anything more than an encumberance to
his memory, so -personally- I don't think that he invented that.

As for the Surly Man story - well, wasn't it checked out? I thought Mr Hutchinson offered to go on walkabouts in the area to earch for Mr. S? I really can't imagine why he did that if he was making it up. Now, I'm not saying he wasn't making it up, but it seems a bit extreme, don't you think?

I think this indiividual is either innocent of any wrongdoing or he really, really, likes risk.

Let's begin with the last sentence : IF you believe that Hutch was JTR -and I'm not afraid to state that I do- then it is impossible to deny that he was someone who "really, really, likes risk". Infact huge adrenalin rushes during the 'danger period' and then feelings of omnipotence immediately after a murder, might have been part of the motivation.

Of course Hutch's behaviour -if he were guilty- after MJK's murder, of offering to go 'walkabout' with the Police, is extreme. Yet what could be more 'extreme' behaviour than butchering Mary's body for a couple of hours ?

It is apparently a trait of some serial killers to want to prolong the excitement that they felt during a murder by involving themselves in the investigation -thus keeping the killing 'fresh' in their minds.

Actually, what did he have to fear ? There were no DNA tests, he may have known nothing of fingerprinting, and there were no CCT cameras. In Ripper Lore there are witnesses to some murders -but only JTR would have been left to know if that was true, at the time ; maybe there weren't...

...or only (unwittingly) Mrs Lewis..

[Rubyretro]

Rubyretro - You think? I think he comes across as somebody with a colourful imagination!

A colourful imagination -yes, certainly; but more than that to retain all the details of the clothes and then build on them to the press. I would think that this is a person who has rehearsed the description in his mind before making a Statement to the Police. I've already given the reasons why I think that Hutch made up Surly/A Man, and if he invented and rehearsed the details, then those details had a significance in his mind. I don't think that an invented 'groom' story would be anything more than an encumberance to
his memory, so -personally- I don't think that he invented that.

As for the Surly Man story - well, wasn't it checked out? I thought Mr Hutchinson offered to go on walkabouts in the area to earch for Mr. S? I really can't imagine why he did that if he was making it up. Now, I'm not saying he wasn't making it up, but it seems a bit extreme, don't you think?

I think this indiividual is either innocent of any wrongdoing or he really, really, likes risk.

Let's begin with the last sentence : IF you believe that Hutch was JTR -and I'm not afraid to state that I do- then it is impossible to deny that he was someone who "really, really, likes risk". Infact huge adrenalin rushes during the 'danger period' and then feelings of omnipotence immediately after a murder, might have been part of the motivation.

Of course Hutch's behaviour -if he were guilty- after MJK's murder, of offering to go 'walkabout' with the Police, is extreme. Yet what could be more 'extreme' behaviour than butchering Mary's body for a couple of hours ?

It is apparently a trait of some serial killers to want to prolong the excitement that they felt during a murder by involving themselves in the investigation -thus keeping the killing 'fresh' in their minds.

Actually, what did he have to fear ? There were no DNA tests, he may have known nothing of fingerprinting, and there were no CCT cameras. In Ripper Lore there are witnesses to some murders -but only JTR would have been left to know if that was true, at the time ; maybe there weren't...

...or only (unwittingly) Mrs Lewis..

[Rubyretro]

Rubyretro - You think? I think he comes across as somebody with a colourful imagination!

A colourful imagination -yes, certainly; but more than that to retain all the details of the clothes and then build on them to the press. I would think that this is a person who has rehearsed the description in his mind before making a Statement to the Police. I've already given the reasons why I think that Hutch made up Surly/A Man, and if he invented and rehearsed the details, then those details had a significance in his mind. I don't think that an invented 'groom' story would be anything more than an encumberance to
his memory, so -personally- I don't think that he invented that.

As for the Surly Man story - well, wasn't it checked out? I thought Mr Hutchinson offered to go on walkabouts in the area to earch for Mr. S? I really can't imagine why he did that if he was making it up. Now, I'm not saying he wasn't making it up, but it seems a bit extreme, don't you think?

I think this indiividual is either innocent of any wrongdoing or he really, really, likes risk.

Let's begin with the last sentence : IF you believe that Hutch was JTR -and I'm not afraid to state that I do- then it is impossible to deny that he was someone who "really, really, likes risk". Infact huge adrenalin rushes during the 'danger period' and then feelings of omnipotence immediately after a murder, might have been part of the motivation.

Of course Hutch's behaviour -if he were guilty- after MJK's murder, of offering to go 'walkabout' with the Police, is extreme. Yet what could be more 'extreme' behaviour than butchering Mary's body for a couple of hours ?

It is apparently a trait of some serial killers to want to prolong the excitement that they felt during a murder by involving themselves in the investigation -thus keeping the killing 'fresh' in their minds.

Actually, what did he have to fear ? There were no DNA tests, he may have known nothing of fingerprinting, and there were no CCT cameras. In Ripper Lore there are witnesses to some murders -but only JTR would have been left to know if that was true, at the time ; maybe there weren't...

...or only (unwittingly) Mrs Lewis..

[Rubyretro]

Rubyretro - You think? I think he comes across as somebody with a colourful imagination!

A colourful imagination -yes, certainly; but more than that to retain all the details of the clothes and then build on them to the press. I would think that this is a person who has rehearsed the description in his mind before making a Statement to the Police. I've already given the reasons why I think that Hutch made up Surly/A Man, and if he invented and rehearsed the details, then those details had a significance in his mind. I don't think that an invented 'groom' story would be anything more than an encumberance to
his memory, so -personally- I don't think that he invented that.

As for the Surly Man story - well, wasn't it checked out? I thought Mr Hutchinson offered to go on walkabouts in the area to earch for Mr. S? I really can't imagine why he did that if he was making it up. Now, I'm not saying he wasn't making it up, but it seems a bit extreme, don't you think?

I think this indiividual is either innocent of any wrongdoing or he really, really, likes risk.

Let's begin with the last sentence : IF you believe that Hutch was JTR -and I'm not afraid to state that I do- then it is impossible to deny that he was someone who "really, really, likes risk". Infact huge adrenalin rushes during the 'danger period' and then feelings of omnipotence immediately after a murder, might have been part of the motivation.

Of course Hutch's behaviour -if he were guilty- after MJK's murder, of offering to go 'walkabout' with the Police, is extreme. Yet what could be more 'extreme' behaviour than butchering Mary's body for a couple of hours ?

It is apparently a trait of some serial killers to want to prolong the excitement that they felt during a murder by involving themselves in the investigation -thus keeping the killing 'fresh' in their minds.

Actually, what did he have to fear ? There were no DNA tests, he may have known nothing of fingerprinting, and there were no CCT cameras. In Ripper Lore there are witnesses to some murders -but only JTR would have been left to know if that was true, at the time ; maybe there weren't...

...or only (unwittingly) Mrs Lewis..

[Rubyretro]

Rubyretro - You think? I think he comes across as somebody with a colourful imagination!

A colourful imagination -yes, certainly; but more than that to retain all the details of the clothes and then build on them to the press. I would think that this is a person who has rehearsed the description in his mind before making a Statement to the Police. I've already given the reasons why I think that Hutch made up Surly/A Man, and if he invented and rehearsed the details, then those details had a significance in his mind. I don't think that an invented 'groom' story would be anything more than an encumberance to
his memory, so -personally- I don't think that he invented that.

As for the Surly Man story - well, wasn't it checked out? I thought Mr Hutchinson offered to go on walkabouts in the area to earch for Mr. S? I really can't imagine why he did that if he was making it up. Now, I'm not saying he wasn't making it up, but it seems a bit extreme, don't you think?

I think this indiividual is either innocent of any wrongdoing or he really, really, likes risk.

Let's begin with the last sentence : IF you believe that Hutch was JTR -and I'm not afraid to state that I do- then it is impossible to deny that he was someone who "really, really, likes risk". Infact huge adrenalin rushes during the 'danger period' and then feelings of omnipotence immediately after a murder, might have been part of the motivation.

Of course Hutch's behaviour -if he were guilty- after MJK's murder, of offering to go 'walkabout' with the Police, is extreme. Yet what could be more 'extreme' behaviour than butchering Mary's body for a couple of hours ?

It is apparently a trait of some serial killers to want to prolong the excitement that they felt during a murder by involving themselves in the investigation -thus keeping the killing 'fresh' in their minds.

Actually, what did he have to fear ? There were no DNA tests, he may have known nothing of fingerprinting, and there were no CCT cameras. In Ripper Lore there are witnesses to some murders -but only JTR would have been left to know if that was true, at the time ; maybe there weren't...

...or only (unwittingly) Mrs Lewis..

[Rubyretro]

Rubyretro - You think? I think he comes across as somebody with a colourful imagination!

A colourful imagination -yes, certainly; but more than that to retain all the details of the clothes and then build on them to the press. I would think that this is a person who has rehearsed the description in his mind before making a Statement to the Police. I've already given the reasons why I think that Hutch made up Surly/A Man, and if he invented and rehearsed the details, then those details had a significance in his mind. I don't think that an invented 'groom' story would be anything more than an encumberance to
his memory, so -personally- I don't think that he invented that.

As for the Surly Man story - well, wasn't it checked out? I thought Mr Hutchinson offered to go on walkabouts in the area to earch for Mr. S? I really can't imagine why he did that if he was making it up. Now, I'm not saying he wasn't making it up, but it seems a bit extreme, don't you think?

I think this indiividual is either innocent of any wrongdoing or he really, really, likes risk.

Let's begin with the last sentence : IF you believe that Hutch was JTR -and I'm not afraid to state that I do- then it is impossible to deny that he was someone who "really, really, likes risk". Infact huge adrenalin rushes during the 'danger period' and then feelings of omnipotence immediately after a murder, might have been part of the motivation.

Of course Hutch's behaviour -if he were guilty- after MJK's murder, of offering to go 'walkabout' with the Police, is extreme. Yet what could be more 'extreme' behaviour than butchering Mary's body for a couple of hours ?

It is apparently a trait of some serial killers to want to prolong the excitement that they felt during a murder by involving themselves in the investigation -thus keeping the killing 'fresh' in their minds.

Actually, what did he have to fear ? There were no DNA tests, he may have known nothing of fingerprinting, and there were no CCT cameras. In Ripper Lore there are witnesses to some murders -but only JTR would have been left to know if that was true, at the time ; maybe there weren't...

...or only (unwittingly) Mrs Lewis..

[Rubyretro]

Sorry -there was a 'malfunction' : I've got multiple posts, and Sally is quoted as the last Post (as opposed to 'Come To The Cookhouse Door '?)in messages..

[Rubyretro]

Sorry -there was a malfunction -I've got multiple posts, whilst Sally is credited as the last Post (as opposed to, Come To The Cookhouse Door ??)
in Messages.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Wow we will never forget Rubyretro s last post x6.
If we let common sense prevail, it is extremely unlikely that a man with a murderous personality would walk into a police station placing homself at the murder scene, at the relevant time [ according to medical opinion?] with tales of a well dressed man , complete with watch, seal, leather gloves, carrying a parcel wrapped in American cloth, and adding snippits of oral from kelly and stranger ie.
Come along dear you will be comftable.
Oh I have lost my hankerchief.
Observations like.
He looked at me surly,
She was spreeish.
He gave her a kiss.
All invented by Hutchinson...for what purpose? was he on a death wish.
I am absolutely convinced that Topping was telling the truth in every respect, and admire the man for his courage in coming foreward.
I should add however that if I had not heard that radio broadcast in the early-mid 1970s, I would proberly be suspicious also.
But it is quite clear to me that as the same imformation was relayed on the radio some 18 years before 'The Ripper and the Royals was published, then it has to have either been Reg himself speaking [ on tape] or someone using his account.
Not one of active members of this site remember that airing, but I have been mentioning the five pound payment for years, long before faircloughs book although not on Casebook obviously.
And to my knowledge no one on casebook, [ including myself] had ever heard of the Wheeling article until recent years, and that mentions a payment does it not?
It is extremely unlikely that a novice on JTR such as Reg, would have read such a publication as that report, and even more unlikely that a 22 year old Topping would have come across such an article on the streets of the east end in 1888.
So how would Reg obtain that imformation, if not from his father, and how would dad know of a payment unless it was paid to him?
Street gossip at the time, which had to have originated for a reason, and if gossip why such a large amount of payment?
I find it very unlikely that Topping would hear of a rumour on the streets and realise that if he researched on the real Hutchinson statement etc, he could incorperate all of this into becoming this man on a friday night to supplement his beer money forever more, and whats more lie to his brother, his son , and uncle Tom Cobley and all.
That would be too fanciful at least to me... much prefer the Honest theory.
Regards Richard,

[Rubyretro]

still malfunctioning..