Profiling

[Tom_Wescott]

And once again, I will say that these beliefs were led on by jumping to the conclusion that the more evil a man seemed, the more ready he would be to commit heinous crimes. And the more ready somebody would be to commit heinous crimes, the more the chance would increase that they were the Ripper.

You're way off base here, Fishstix. The investigators of that time were privvy to MUCH more information than we are, as they were aware of far more dastardly crimes committed or believed to have been committed by Le Grand, whereas we are only aware of his more minor offenses. Even most criminals would not think of repeatedly beating women in the open street in daylight, but to Le Grand's mind, that's a very minor thing. It makes you wonder what kind of crime he'd go to great lengths to conceal.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom W:

"Yeah, me and the people who knew him personally, and investigators who thought he was the Ripper."

And once again, I will say that these beliefs were led on by jumping to the conclusion that the more evil a man seemed, the more ready he would be to commit heinous crimes. And the more ready somebody would be to commit heinous crimes, the more the chance would increase that they were the Ripper.
It is an understandable train of thought to follow, temptingly easy at it is. It misses out, however, on the underlying psychological aspects of it all. We are dealing with people living in an era that stated that crimes like these could not have been perpetrated by an Englishman, Tom. The understanding of the serial killerīs mind was not even in itīs infancy - it was still waiting to be born. And with no substantiation attached inbetween Le Grand and the Ripper victims, we are left with nothing in this particular respect than misconceptions and falsely based deductions.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Abby:

"I think it is more likely than not that a serial killer with an urge to do nasty things to women would take the initiative-honestly don't you think Fish?
Also, the quickness with which he procured Eddowes after Stride points to him taking the initiative in my opinion."

I am always honest, Abby. And in this case it leads me to conclude that itīs either or, actually. You must keep in mind that what the Ripper did very much resembles what psychotic people may do - we should not be too certain that he was an organized killer, Abby, for there are elements of disorganization around too, as you will appreciate.
The unfortunates, if you will, of Whitechapel would not deviate from the ones of todayīs Western world. They may well have popped the question, so to speak - especially since they were more often than not in desperate need for money - and it may well be that this act on their behalf was what triggered the Ripper. It is in no way an unlikely scenario, no matter what either of us think likely or not.

"many witness statements, show that he did"

You would, I hope, have noticed that the conclusion of the police was that nobody ever got a good look at him? Longs man, Schwartzīs ditto, Lawendes sighting - we simply cannot be sure that either of the witnesses really saw Jack. Much speaks for Lawende being a true observer of him - but even so, we have no recording of him being your kind of character, have we? All we have is the observation that Eddowes placed her had on his chest, and that tells us nothing about him, Iīm afraid. You can place your hand on the chest of a skilfull womanizer, and you can place your hand on the chest of a psychotic man, scared of women in general.

We need to be careful about jumping to conclusions, simple as that. Tempting though it may be!

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Ben and Tom

If it is rare for that to happen (serial killers who also murder their wives) then in my mind i think would put a check in the negative column for Bury's, Kelly's and Chapmans candidacy for ripper suspect (though I think they are all still viable).

[Ben]

Hi Abby,

How many known serial killers of women (other than their wife) also murdered their wife?

Reg Christie springs to mind, for one.

[Tom_Wescott]

None I can think of. But then, I've seen nothing in the cases of Bury and Kelly to suggest they should be given serious consideration as Ripper suspects.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Tom

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think violence against ones wife is quite the same

I have thought about this and it begs the question-How many known serial killers of women (other than their wife) also murdered their wife?

[Tom_Wescott]

"We" cannot see him disemboweling women, Tom - you can.

Yeah, me and the people who knew him personally, and investigators who thought he was the Ripper.

I agree with everything you say, Fisherman, and I have the exact same “gut feeling“ as you pertaining to Le Grand's crimes vs. the Ripper murders, as in their coming from a different frame of (sick) mind. On the other side, I wouldn't totally refuse to consider that Le Grand would disembowel someone post mortem.

In which case you don't agree with everything Fisherman says, because the Ripper victims were indeed disemboweled post mortem.

I disagree with this, because 2 suspects, James Kelly and W. Bury, both were KNOWN murderers of women via knife and Bury even has abdominal stabbing on his resume.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think violence against ones wife is quite the same. And of course you're correct in that the Ripper approached or allowed himself to be approached by prostitutes, and subsequently took control of them. So this is not someone afraid of women. To say otherwise, as Maria and Fisherman are doing, is rather absurd.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Abby Normal:

"I totally disagree with this. JtR was able to convince women to accompany him into dark alleys at the height of the scare which would IMHO mean he was good at gaining their confidence and trust."

To begin with, we do not know, Abby, whether Jack took the initiative - or whether the women he killed did that. Therefore we know nothing about his ability to convince or to gain trust, just as we do not know that he had a way with words. So I think you may be working from a desired scenario on your behalf more than from a confirmed one.

Whichever way, I think a very fair case can be made for Jack being, shall we say, out of the normal when it came to matters of sexuality. Having an urge to cut up womenīs bellies and rummaging about inside them, looking for keepthings, would not translate into being a ladies man in that particular department, something I believe you would agree with. And that is what I am talking about when I am saying that Le Grand would have been a man that sexually ensnared women, the way pimps do, whereas Jack would probably not have as uncomplicated a relationship with sex.
You will notice that such a thing does not mean that he could not have been a smoothtalking success - itīs just that we cannot possibly know whether he was or not - but when it came to actual sexuality, he would have been something very much else than the regular punter.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish
Thanks for the response.

To begin with, we do not know, Abby, whether Jack took the initiative - or whether the women he killed did that

I think it is more likely than not that a serial killer with an urge to do nasty things to women would take the initiative-honestly don't you think Fish?
Also, the quickness with which he procured Eddowes after Stride points to him taking the initiative in my opinion.

Therefore we know nothing about his ability to convince or to gain trust, just as we do not know that he had a way with words.

Again, many witness statements, show that he did (regardless of if he initiated or not).

I think a very fair case can be made for Jack being, shall we say, out of the normal when it came to matters of sexuality.

Totally agree with you here. In terms of the actual act of sex/intercourse i beleive he probably had major issues!

[Fisherman]

Abby Normal:

"I totally disagree with this. JtR was able to convince women to accompany him into dark alleys at the height of the scare which would IMHO mean he was good at gaining their confidence and trust."

To begin with, we do not know, Abby, whether Jack took the initiative - or whether the women he killed did that. Therefore we know nothing about his ability to convince or to gain trust, just as we do not know that he had a way with words. So I think you may be working from a desired scenario on your behalf more than from a confirmed one.

Whichever way, I think a very fair case can be made for Jack being, shall we say, out of the normal when it came to matters of sexuality. Having an urge to cut up womenīs bellies and rummaging about inside them, looking for keepthings, would not translate into being a ladies man in that particular department, something I believe you would agree with. And that is what I am talking about when I am saying that Le Grand would have been a man that sexually ensnared women, the way pimps do, whereas Jack would probably not have as uncomplicated a relationship with sex.
You will notice that such a thing does not mean that he could not have been a smoothtalking success - itīs just that we cannot possibly know whether he was or not - but when it came to actual sexuality, he would have been something very much else than the regular punter.

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Comments like this go completely over my head. Apparently, somewhere is a massive dossier covering every element of Le Grands personality, activities, thought processes, etc., and everyone has access to it but me. The man had a friggin' weapons arsenal for Begg's sake, and knew how to use it. He wanted people dead, he tried to kill cops, he liked watching women bleed, he tried to make women explode. Out of the long list of Ripper suspects I would say he's the ONLY one we can point to with any authority and say "Yeah, I could see him disemboweling women," because in no other suspect's case is there any reason at all to suspect him of this kind of violent murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
I think when looking at possible suspects, it is important to see what they are capable of in terms of past crimes and history of violence. In these terms Grand is definitely capable in my view of murdering women and therefore(along with the other factors) make him a viable suspect.

Out of the long list of Ripper suspects I would say he's the ONLY one we can point to with any authority and say "Yeah, I could see him disemboweling women," because in no other suspect's case is there any reason at all to suspect him of this kind of violent murder.

I disagree with this, because 2 suspects, James Kelly and W. Bury, both were KNOWN murderers of women via knife and Bury even has abdominal stabbing on his resume.

[Abby Normal]

Corey, I was just kidding in my post! I of course would not imply any phony stuff involved in your profiling, and I look much forward to seeing it.

Tom, I know full well that you are not putting all your apples in just the one basket. I realize that you find Le Grand fascinating, and he is, no doubt about that. From what Iīve seen dug up about him, he deserves being ranked high up on the suspect list (although this to a significant extent depends on the fact that there are very few rational suspects about to compete for the title). I look, as Iīve said, much forward to your forthcoming further presentation of him.

I suppose that you have already realized the obvious parallel hidden in the Hillside strangler case - Bianchi and Buono ran a pimp business too, just like Le Grand did. They were extremely cruel people too, mostly Buono, just like Le Grand. On the surface of things, they seem a useful comparison, and sure enough, a man like Angelo Buono may have been very much alike Le Grand, a short fuse, a flamboyant temper, a ladies man - and a sadist.

So where lies my problem with Le Grand? Well, so far, it lies with the fact that it is not Le Grand and Buono we should compare - it is Jack and Le Grand. And Jack was NOT the kind of killer that Buono represents. Where Buono kills for the joy of inflicting pain and seeing his victims suffer, raping and tormenting them, Jack does nothing comparable at all. He kills as fast as he could, securing the silence he needs to set about what he really came for: the mutilations.

Le Grand commanded control of women. He obviously did not like them, and he may well have thought them expendable. Although I strongly suspect that he he was much more interested in what living prostitutes could do for him, than he was in killing them, it can of course not be excluded that he may have harboured a serial killer within. But if he did, then that serial killer would not have killed in the manner Jack did, if you ask me. Nor would he have chosen the type of victims that Jack chose, once again if you ask me.

Le Grand, in all probability, was convinced that he knew how women think and function - that is a trait of "honour" of every pimp. Jack, on the other hand, would have been totally confused when it came to this subject - for the third time if you ask me.
Putting it otherwise, I feel quite convinced that although I have no certainty and very little idea what Jack was, I feel quite convinced that he was NOT a pimp! Pimps typically enroll their tradeswomen by masquerading as their lovers, only to turn afffection into fear on behalf of the women later on. Can you see Jack the Ripper doing that, Tom? I canīt.

I donīt know if this makes sense to you, Tom. I know it does to me.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish

Le Grand, in all probability, was convinced that he knew how women think and function - that is a trait of "honour" of every pimp. Jack, on the other hand, would have been totally confused when it came to this subject

I totally disagree with this. JtR was able to convince women to accompany him into dark alleys at the height of the scare which would IMHO mean he was good at gaining their confidence and trust. Therefore would know what women think and what they want to hear. Alot of the witness statements also makes me beleive that he was a bit of a smooth talker and had a way with words, a good rap, as we used to say, with the ladies.

[mariab]

Let him write it first. I'm home-bound today, needing to complete a French article for publication which misses at least another dozen pages, and just looking at my own prose makes me want to p*ke. (Even the best parts in the text don't manage to improve my mood.)
As for the Mandela manuscript, I always wondered, when that other inmate smuggled the manuscript under his shirt, and very possibly sweated through it, the editors in London might have encountered some diffuculty deciphering the text...! Lazy thoughts, while I feel SOOO compelled to procrastinate, but that darn article needs to be done – eventually. (“Eventually“ is good, as it's not the same as “right now“!)

[Fisherman]

Well ... long as I get to read the book ...

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Oh, he can totally write his book from lockup. Nelson Mandela wrote his first book (by hand) when imprisoned on Robben Island, and he even managed to get the manuscript smuggled to London (under some released inmate's shirt) to get published while he was still imprisoned. I don't know why Wescott should require more discriminating circumstances than Mandela, esp. since he claims he has no ego, and he compared himself to Budha.
(Mandela even had to use a bucket as a shower and bathroom for 18 years, until they installed plumbing on Robben Island. I tried to attach a photo of his cell here, but it's too big Bytes-wise, both as jpg and pdf. But, to be honest, I've never seen a more cutesy prison cell in my entire life: The bucket is bright red, the tiny little desk is deep green, and the blanket has lions embroided on it! The only thing missing is a stuffed animal.)