Grave Spitting

[richardnunweek]

Hi all,
lets look at the known facts..
A] There were two carriages, containing eight mourners, six women, and two men, one of the males being joseph Barnett, the other unknown.
B] Only visitors that were in St Patricks when the poccession arrived could remain in the cemetary, all other that had gathered at the gates were kept out.
C] A sketch was made of the service, [ can be viewed on Casebook] clearly dipicting six women and two men, and a pile of boards close at hand.
D] Only after the small service was over and the mourning party had left the area, and only after the grave was filled, and the flowers mounted, was the gates opened to the public to file past the grave.
The above are all recorded facts.
Here is Farsons account...
He recalls the letter he received [ amongst many others] as mentioning that the mother of the sender when a teenager along with a friend was visiting a grave at the cemetary when the service happened.
She noticed that one man remained behind after the others retired, and believing nobody was close by . parted the boards with his foot and spat down on the coffin several times.
The girls were terrified, and remained silent, at least to the media, until the daughter wrote in to Associated Redifusion in 1959.. hense this story.
Was it true?
What are the implications?
Who was the other man..[ we know one was J Barnett]
Looking at the sketch what do we see?
In the sketch where was the priest?
In one account of the service the priest Father Colomban was described as a 'Giant of a man' was he?
Ask yourself one question.
Who would be the most likely of the male mourners to stay behind after the service for a few moments.?
Regards Richard.

[Bob Hinton]

Spitting is so unhygenic, still I suppose if it's on a grave the occupant is passed that point.

[DanaeChantel]

Thanks Lynn. wow! 6' 7", now that is one big dude. Especially for 1888. People were much smaller in stature back in those days. He was crazy too huh? Hmmmm . . .maybe he was at the funeral and he was the one that spit on Mary's grave.

[Stephen Thomas]

When was Millers Court pulled down, because John DeChauncey told me it was one of those that survived the war?

Who on earth is John DeChauncy?

[lynn cates]

Fleming

Hello Danae. (Joe) Fleming (AKA Evans) was an ex-boyfriend of MJK. His case records from Stone lunatic asylum, transcribed by Chris Scott, indicate that he was 6'7".

Hope this helps.

Cheers.
LC

[DanaeChantel]

umm . . .who is fleming? I seem to be somewhat lost. Was there a giant of a man at Mary's funeral?

The problem with the spitting story is the fact that this incident along with all of the incidents related to the JTR case happened so long ago. I would imagine if I were a teenage girl and I saw someone spit on a woman's grave who had just been murdered by JTR, I would be fearful of my life and would probably NOT tell ANYONE. Maybe I would tell years later if I had moved to the states and was married and away from Whitechapel.

Odd that Mr. Farson lost the supposed "letter". If I had a letter such as this in my possession, I would guard it with my life. It would be very important evidence. I'm sure the letter would have had a postmark and address on it and the lady could have been interviewed in person. This is too bad. Perhaps the man was a fraud. Sounds like it anyway.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Did someone call?
Being the person who was responsible for bringing this incident to Casebook many moons ago, I originally had strong views.
However as it appears that the author of this initially, a certain Mr Farson has been labled with the tag of being a touch 'unreliable', my faith has diminshed somewhat.
I would say that its only 50/50 that this incident ever occured, but if it did it would be intresting, especially if fleming attended the service, and especially if his height was established as ' a giant of a man....
Regards Richard.

[Suzi]

Come in Nunners!!! x

[DanaeChantel]

Millers Court was pulled down in 1927, I believe. There is a picture on here in the East End photographs of it being demolitioned.

I can also imagine John McCarthy renting the room to morbid people who would view the poor Elephant Man (Joseph Merrick) as a sideshow. I still think it would be horrible and negative to live in such a place. Also, If I were one of the neighbors living in Millers Court when the murder occured, I would have hightailed it out of there and ran as fast and as far as I could and would NOT have looked back.

[Baron of the High Rips]

When was Millers Court pulled down, because John DeChauncey told me it was one of those that survived the war?
Still I can imagine John McCarthy renting the room to the sort of morbid sightseers that found Joseph Merrick as a freakshow attraction.

[The Grave Maurice]

And there's this thread, too:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1684

[DanaeChantel]

Thanks Lynn, I'll check it out.

[lynn cates]

Supe

Hello Danae. Perhaps this will prove helpful.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-spitting.html

Cheers.
LC

[DanaeChantel]

I believe I also remember hearing something about a radio talk show and someone called in saying their grandmother or great grandmother had been an East Ender and had seen the grave spitting incident, "supposedly".

Wow, some people actually lived in Mary's room after she was murdered. Jeez, how scary is that? I couldn't imagine such a horrific thing. There must have been some very negative feelings and dreariness in that place. That Landlord or slumlord rather, must have been desperate to allow someone else to move in there. I would have boarded the place up permanently. What a sick individual he must have been.

[Johnr]

The Origin Of The Grave-Spitting Story

I think the whole Grave Spitting story, which probably began as an " urban legend" around the East London streets a hundred years ago, (along with the "my Aunty met a tall dark stranger with a black bag one dark night, and he patted her on the head and said: 'You hurry on home dear, a nice little girl like you should not be out this late on a dark night like this..' type story).

Actually the elderly lady whose mother passed on the Grave Spitting story was discovered by journalist/ T.V. producer Daniel Farson. She answered a publicised request for anyone with family information about the Ripper to contact ITV.

Several East Enders were interviewed by Farson on his two part documentary on Jack the Ripper in late 1959.
The story was briefly mentioned in the 1973 paperback edition of Farson's book entitled: "Jack The Ripper".
Another interviewee told how her family later lived in the Mary Kelly room and how they could still see strange marks on the wall...

The Grave Spitting story ( for me anyway) has that Victorian dramatic colour, beloved of theatre audiences in those days.

JOHN RUFFELS.