Pentagram

[Howard Brown]

Hardly twaddle considering I have done more research on accident than you have on purpose on Stephenson. In fact, Harris contemplated ( without evidence, might I add ) that Stephenson hit "rock bottom" after murdering Kelly and found religion with Mrs. Woodhull. The fact is, is that Stephenson never denounced his Wesleyan Methodist upbringing...nor, might I add, was he a violent sexual sadist as Harris propagandized over and over and over and over...you get the drift.

　What the hell does any of that have to do with what is actually under discussion which is the actual health of Donston. Not his methodist upbringing, not his violent sexual sadism real or mythical. Where is the actual evidence that ever experienced a debilitating condition? You are comparing him to Proust and Woolf who both had a looooooooong history of medical complaints and there is virtually nothing anywhere other than his admittance to the hospital during which time he appeared peppy and vibrant enough to maintain a massive amount of correspondence with people.
　
I was not comparing him to those two people and I only used them as examples of people diagnosed with neurasthenia. I mentioned the Wesleyan connection to illustrate one other researcher's use of "rock bottom" in regard to D'Onston. Harris felt he hit rock bottom after the murders, while I think its possible he may have hit rock bottom in July of 88. Thats what the reference had to do with his health. Mr. Harris, of course, didn't know which hospital D'Onston was in when he wrote The Ripper File and therefore could not know he went in which was prior to Tabram's murder...which necessitated this faked neurasthenia bit.
　
We know of a few letters he shared with Stead ( which Marsh saw and relayed to Roots), the December 1st article and the letter to the City Police on October 16th. Other than those handful of missives and the elaborate Pall Mall Gazette article put together over 134 days, thats no indication whatsoever that he was peppy and vibrant and by the way, how did you come up with "massive amount of correspondence with people" ? Have you been holding out on me,girl?
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Not only may Stephenson been affected mentally, but physically as well. One of the illnesses that fell under the umbrella of neurasthenia was problems with one's central nervous system...a physical problem as well as mental.
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May have? Where's the evidence? With all your research, more done accidentally than I have done on purpose, surely there are several incidents that point to Stephenson's troubling health throughout his life. Surely there were indications prior during his time in Brighton and after his escape from the hospital. Or did his neurasthenia just magically vanish when he left the hospital?

No, he went back to the LH in May of 1889 and stayed in the LH, this time for chloral abuse, for 70 days.
No one disputes the validity of the May 1889 registration and for good reason. It occurred after the skein of '88 had already transpired. Its only when people try to fit him up do they speculate on the 1888 registration.
　
While he recovered sufficiently in Dr. Sutton's estimation in December of 1888, he's back in a few months later. By the way, he didn't escape from the hospital as you suggest.
No one has yet to find any record of illnesses or shootings such as I've mentioned prior to his stay at Brighton. There's no need really. Many people get sick out of the blue or an illness develops over time and culminates with someone having to, at long last, go for help somewhere from someone. Its just as possible that he had no prior illnesses as it is that he was affected for a long time before finally breaking down and going to the hospital.

[Ally]

Hardly twaddle considering I have done more research on accident than you have on purpose on Stephenson. In fact, Harris contemplated ( without evidence, might I add ) that Stephenson hit "rock bottom" after murdering Kelly and found religion with Mrs. Woodhull. The fact is, is that Stephenson never denounced his Wesleyan Methodist upbringing...nor, might I add, was he a violent sexual sadist as Harris propagandized over and over and over and over...you get the drift.

What the hell does any of that have to do with what is actually under discussion which is the actual health of Donston. Not his methodist upbringing, not his violent sexual sadism real or mythical. Where is the actual evidence that ever experienced a debilitating condition? You are comparing him to Proust and Woolf who both had a looooooooong history of medical complaints and there is virtually nothing anywhere other than his admittance to the hospital during which time he appeared peppy and vibrant enough to maintain a massive amount of correspondence with people.

Not only may Stephenson been affected mentally, but physically as well. One of the illnesses that fell under the umbrella of neurasthenia was problems with one's central nervous system...a physical problem as well as mental.

May have? Where's the evidence? With all your research, more done accidentally than I have done on purpose, surely there are several incidents that point to Stephenson's troubling health throughout his life. Surely there was indications prior during his time in Brighton and after his escape from the hospital. Or did his neurasthenia just magically vanish when he left the hospital?

You do know that Inspector Roots knew him as a abuser of chloral hydrate and alcohol 20 years prior to the December 26th,1888 rendezvous of the two men,correct ?

And? so because he was a drug addict this is indicative of what? You do know drug addicts often try to get themselves in good graces or admitted to the hospital for fake complaints to get their hands on drugs right?

You do remember him being mentioned as having ( from Cremers, which therefore requires verification ) a very limited appetite ,don't you ?

A limited appetite? Seriously? How about dizzy spells, complaints of pain, fatigue, complaints of unwellness. Where's actual evidence or indication of an actual illness?

[Howard Brown]

We can still use common sense. And common sense says that your attempt to portray the london hospital as a place where people were booted out at the least transgression is not accurate and that there does not appear to be any real danger in his having lost his bed.

At no time have I suggested that the Hospital would boot individuals out for the least transgression. Beds, always being in demand, weren't automatically handed out to someone with a bogus complaint...another factor pro-theorists convieniently overlooked in their "research".

So you are now claiming that doctors would not release patients who had no home? Is that what we are claiming now? That if you were homeless, and a doctor had no real treatment for you, they would allow you to stay indefinitely when there was nothing they could do for you?

Where did this idea come from ? I said nothing of the sort. I mentioned that it was possible that he left Brighton, went to London to seek quarters from his brother and failing that may have....may have....gone to the LH out of necessity and of course, his condition which the doctor's diagnosed as neurasthenia. He may not have wanted to go to the Hospital in the first place, but if he had nowhere to go and had a legitimate complaint its logical that he would go to the LH.

Wait...he could afford traveling to london and residing for a 134 days there but not staying where he was.

Not having the rates of the contemporary hospitals in Brighton in front of me to compare with the LH, one might presume that the cost at a Brighton facility or one nearby was out of his reach. In any event, he did roll back to London, did his 19 weeks, got released and moved on. 5 months later, he's back in the same hospital.

Nor can you make an assessment that he had hit rock bottom and all that other twaddle...

Hardly twaddle considering I have done more research on accident than you have on purpose on Stephenson. In fact, Harris contemplated ( without evidence, might I add ) that Stephenson hit "rock bottom" after murdering Kelly and found religion with Mrs. Woodhull. The fact is, is that Stephenson never denounced his Wesleyan Methodist upbringing...nor, might I add, was he a violent sexual sadist as Harris propagandized over and over and over and over...you get the drift.

So comparing his condition to Woolf and Proust who clearly suffered from a severe mental illness, when there is absolutely NOTHING other than his mysterious stay in the hospital to ever point to D'onston being a mentally troubled individual is a ludicrous comparison.

Not only may Stephenson been affected mentally, but physically as well. One of the illnesses that fell under the umbrella of neurasthenia was problems with one's central nervous system...a physical problem as well as mental. Besides, I do not know the specific problem Woolf or Proust had, but it might have also affected their physical performance as well. Central nervous systems are like that.

No but we can look at his life preceding his hospital internment and his life afterwards to find clues as to the supposed validity of his diagnosis. And there doesn't appear to be ANY other symptoms or any fallout or evidence of real sickness

You do know that Inspector Roots knew him as a abuser of chloral hydrate and alcohol 20 years prior to the December 26th,1888 rendezvous of the two men,correct ? You do remember him being mentioned as having ( from Cremers, which therefore requires verification ) a very limited appetite ,don't you ? You do remember the gunshot in Flamborough ,I'd think. Just because you have judged Stephenson on the limited available material regarding his health and regretably unavailable doctor appointments ( I also forgot to add George Marsh, who sized him up in 1888) and using your 122 year old hindsight are once more attempting to diagnose, like Harris did, without any valid basis.

[Ally]

1.First of all neurasthenia is a fake disease anyway.

According to you. You didn't see or diagnose Stephenson. You and I are not doctors. Neither were or did the people who maintain he faked the complaint.

No according to fact. It's not a real disease. Even when it was being diagnosed it was diagnosed as a MENTAL condition, a nervous condition not a medical one. And the fact that we are not doctors are irrelevant. We can still use common sense. And common sense says that your attempt to portray the london hospital as a place where people were booted out at the least transgression is not accurate and that there does not appear to be any real danger in his having lost his bed. Not to mention, the "symptoms" of nuerasthenia are ones that are completely easy to fake.

Thats a logical and sensible idea, if he indeed had a home. So far, it appears he had no place to go after leaving Brighton's Cricketers Inn. More on this in the future from Mike.

So you are now claiming that doctors would not release patients who had no home? Is that what we are claiming now? That if you were homeless, and a doctor had no real treatment for you, they would allow you to stay indefinitely when there was nothing they could do for you?

This is again at odds with the nature of a hospital so desperate for money and space that they would kick out people at a whim. So once again you are using contradictory logic.

Not everyone can start over without a wife at the age of 47,with a drinking habit, with a 20 year old thigh wound which must have bothered him,and being gifted with hack writer talents. He hit the bottom.

Speculation without evidence. You say we can't go into his diagnosis since we weren't doctors and weren't there, and yet you do the very same thing, three paragraphs down. We don't know if he hit bottom, we don't know if he was faking. And why would he have "hit bottom" over the loss of a wife he was completely estranged from. Your saying he hit bottom is absolutely no different than Harris saying he faked neurasthenia. Both are pure speculation, based on what you want to believe.

In light of this, its not surprising that a man or woman might seek help and go to where an affordable treatment was available. Yes, he's said to have been in Brighton, with all that groovy sea air and the beach and the salubrious surroundings, but he may not have been able to enter/afford any facilities in the area.

Wait...he could afford traveling to london and residing for a 135 days there but not staying where he was?

The fact is Ally...is that we cannot make the assessment whether he faked a complaint based on what we feel 122 years later. Proust and Woolf both had neurasthenia and no one assails the medical assessment in either of those cases.

Nor can you make an assessment that he had hit rock bottom and all that other twaddle. And yes, people do assail the diagnosis of Woolf and Proust and have challenged those diagnosis. Woolf ended up killing herself and Proust ended his days a virtual recluse holed up in his home. These seem far different from the diagnosis of D'onston, who basically I suppose after "hitting rock bottom" bounces right on back and goes pub crawling and living the good life.

So comparing his condition to Woolf and Proust who clearly suffered from a severe mental illness, when there is absolutely NOTHING other than his mysterious stay in the hospital to ever point to D'onston being a mentally troubled individual is a ludicrous comparison.

We no more have a right to diagnose him than we do with any ambulatory patients in the London Hospital or any hospital for that matter.

No but we can look at his life preceding his hospital internment and his life afterwards to find clues as to the supposed validity of his diagnosis. And there doesn't appear to be ANY other symptoms or any fallout or evidence of real sickness. Indeed while supposedly so ill and confined to hospital he seemed to have managed to maintain a regular interest and avid following of all the goings on in the outside world, communicating regularly with people and newspapers and police. Quite an interesting interest in the goings on of the world from a man so ill as to be confined to a hospital for an extended stay.

[Howard Brown]

Mike :

Remind me to suggest we eliminate Lewis Carroll next time,okay?

Ally....

1.First of all neurasthenia is a fake disease anyway.

According to you. You didn't see or diagnose Stephenson. You and I are not doctors. Neither were or did the people who maintain he faked the complaint.

2.There's no cure for it, there's no real treatment for it, so what was he doing in the hospital with it for 134 days anyway?

The likelihood that he had run out of options on where to live by that time. His condition, diagnosed as a complaint of neurasthenia, may have been related to a form of nervous breakdown or mid life stress. These are guesses, since I, like you, did not diagnose him.

3.You make the point over and over that doctors aren't going to allow malingerers to stay when they had real patients with such chronic conditions as TB floating about the place, but neurasthenia?

Exactly. If his complaint was legitimate, then it makes sense that they allowed him to stay for 134 days. Sutton, who signed his release, was not some newbie doctor. Sutton was on the spot. We weren't. Anything we might feel or surmise about the severity of the complaint is simply speculation..

4.The only treatment prescribed for it is rest and they gave up a hospital bed for someone to lie down for 135 days and no other treatment? Why wouldn't they have sent him home to rest?

Thats a logical and sensible idea, if he indeed had a home. So far, it appears he had no place to go after leaving Brighton's Cricketers Inn. More on this in the future from Mike.

Ally...one significant point in all this Harris-created ( Because no one else would have bothered to make an issue of him faking the complaint in the first place) hoopla over his complaint being faked is that while you or I can endure a lot of physical & psychological pain, not everyone can. Not everyone can start over without a wife at the age of 47,with a drinking habit, with a 20 year old thigh wound which must have bothered him,and being gifted with hack writer talents. He hit the bottom.

In light of this, its not surprising that a man or woman might seek help and go to where an affordable treatment was available. Yes, he's said to have been in Brighton, with all that groovy sea air and the beach and the salubrious surroundings, but he may not have been able to enter/afford any facilities in the area. On top of that, he might well have tried to live with his brother in London first and seen that idea....which you mentioned, of living in a home....shot down like a gull over Flamborough Bay.

The fact is Ally...is that we cannot make the assessment whether he faked a complaint based on what we feel 122 years later. Proust and Woolf both had neurasthenia and no one assails the medical assessment in either of those cases.

Bottom line Al...the best anyone can do in an effort to squeeze this 10 pounds of sugar of a suspect into a 5 pound bag of viable suspect worthiness is to assume the role of the diagnostician at the LH on July 26th,1888. That we cannot do. We no more have a right to diagnose him than we do with any ambulatory patients in the London Hospital or any hospital for that matter.

Nothing else...not the alleged v.d....the alleged cavorting with prosses...trips to here and there...initiations into the mundo mumbo jumbo...two scenarios provided by Mr. Harris ( The Ripper File and The True Face have two different scenarios for how RDS "was" the veritable Ripper)...his alleged penchant for violence and blood....all of that....every bit of that....is made up and baseless...after examining the original sources that were used to foist this mook into the pantheon of suspects after December 26th, 1888.

I leave you now to go shovel. You are welcome to help.

[Ally]

Of course the policy of the hospital was set up in case patients desirous of leaving the hospital after hours asked to do so. If they wanted to leave, there was the matter of appealing to the House Governor. To what degree the departure of patients was in the construction of this regulationwas undoubtedly of lesser significance in the protocol's creation. Read the protocol Mike provided before. The protocol stipulates how those from within or without enter or leave the premises. Stephenson could ill afford, and he is but one example Ally, to lose his place in the Hospital if he was deemed sufficiently salubrious.
There's not only no reason to suggest Stephenson for wanting to leave the Ward, there's no reason to suggest that his complaint was not serious as the 134 day stay would warrant. Only the silly "faked neurasthenia" concept kept this nonsense alive as long as it did. Its over.

The other point within this issue that neither of us addressed was that had anyone wanted to leave the premises, how far from the front door does anyone think they'd let someone travel if they had asked to step outside ?

No the point of this is you build your anti-Donston case around things that you put forth as fact when they are nothing of the sort. Such as your reliance on the "faked neurasthenia" thing. First of all neurasthenia is a fake disease anyway. The symptoms for it are headaches and irritability. What the hell is that? He basically had PMS. There's no cure for it, there's no real treatment for it, so what was he doing in the hospital with it for 135 days anyway? You make the point over and over that doctors aren't going to allow malingerers to stay when they had real patients with such chronic conditions as TB floating about the place, but neurasthenia? The only treatment prescribed for it is rest and they gave up a hospital bed for someone to lie down for 135 days and no other treatment? Why wouldn't they have sent him home to rest?

You can't have it both ways. They obviously weren't kicking him out even though there was nothing they could do for him. So they were clearly not as rigid and strict in booting patients to make room for others. He was allowed to stay, despite there being no medical need for him to stay, which suggests his bed was secure for as long as he wanted it and he wouldn't have been risking it to stroll to the pub. Maybe that was part of his therapy even. To see if he would succumb to nervous exhaustion should he go out into the world on test runs.

[Mike Covell]

Also, I think the Cremers story even if 40 years old and after the fact; second hand info, about the bloody ties and D'onston drawing an upside down triangle on his door is very relevant. It shows how scared Cremers was of this man and how it impacted her to remembering details.

In "Crowley's Ripper: the collected work of Roslyn D'onston, not only does it talk about the bloody dress ties, it goes it great detail about D'onston's fascination with the black arts, how he electrocuted dogs, cats, and other animals; his initiation into black magic through Lord Lytton using a chalked- red- outline on the ground of a pentagram...ect, and no he wouldn't let anyone no of his mumbo jumbo.

Cremers was so scared she ran from the house and alerted the authorities....oh no! She stayed with Stephenson!

Crowley does not mention Stephenson electrocuted dogs! Thats a lie!

Here is the chapter from Aliester Crowley's Confessions, Chapter 71, pages 690-691.

At this time London was agog with the exploits of Jack the Ripper. One theory of the motive of the murderer was that he was performing an Operation to obtain the Supreme Black Magical Power. The seven women had to be killed so that their seven bodies formed a "Calvary cross of seven points" with its head to the west. The theory was that after killing the third or the fourth, I forget which, the murderer acquired the power of invisibility, and this was confirmed by the fact that in one case a policeman heard the shrieks of the dying woman and reached her before life was extinct, yet she lay in a cul-de-sac, with no possible exit save to the street; and the policeman saw no signs of the assassin, thought he was patrolling outside, expressly on the lookout.

Miss Collins' friend took great interest in these murders. He discussed them with her and Cremers on several occasions. He gave them imitations of how the murderer might have accomplished his task without arousing the suspicion of his victims until the last moment. Cremers objected that his escape must have been a risky matter, because of his habit of devouring certain portions of the ladies before leaving them. What about the blood on his collar and shirt? The lecturer demonstrated that any gentleman in evening dress had merely to turn up the collar of a light overcoat to conceal any traces of his supper.

Time passed! Mabel tired of her friend, but did not dare to get rid of him because he had a packet of compromising letters written by her. Cremers offered to steal these from him. In the man's bedroom was a tin uniform case which he kept under the bed to which he attached it by cords. Neither of the

{691}

women had ever seen this open and Cremers suspected that he kept these letters in it. She got him out of the way for a day by a forged telegram, entered the room, untied the cords and drew the box from under the bed. To her surprise it was very light, as if empty. She proceeded nevertheless to pick the lock and open it. There were no letters; there was nothing in the box, but seven white evening dress ties, all stiff and black with clotted blood!

Another version of the Confessions can be read on this site here,
http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...donston.8.html

These are the only two known instances where Crowley mentioned Stephenson and neither mention electrocting dogs.

[DaveMc]

On page 55. of "the collected works of Roslyn D'onston" theres a triangle called the "Victoria vitrix" the points are I,N,K and in the center is an H, can anyone tell me if this triangle can be matched by location of the C5 murders

I'm not sure how the Victoria Vitrix fits into the puzzle at all.

The best definition of "Vitrix" I can give is that it's an occultic "spiritual formula" that symbolizes a personality.
In this case, the personality of Victoria Woodhull Martin.

The "H" is the "High" of her spirit; her "godself".
"I" is "Illumination"
"N" is "Nature"
"K" is "Knowledge"

No doubt that Robert D'Onston Stephenson (aka Roslyn D'Onston - aka Tautriadelta) is using the Christian representation for The Godhead or The Trinity.

Compare:


The last thing an occultist would do is use the Victoria Vitrix to harm women.
One might say ESPECIALLY not harm prostitutes.

It also raises a warning about incidental anagrams which "NECKS" may be.

The needle on my skeptic meter is well into the red on this one.

[Magpie]

Grave:

I feel like crawling into a grave after shoveling out there around 6 PM. All the places to put this stuff have been exhausted and we've got two more snowfalls coming next week. Over 6 feet so far in less than 5 weeks here.
Not gonna be easy to make work tomorrow...unless Nina shovels faster.

Luckily your storm blew itself out over the lakes, so we are green as green can be here at the moment. Wicked wind chill though.

[Bob Hinton]

Shock horror "Five points form Pentagram"

Nice graphic from Septic Blue as always. However it does prove the point that virtually any distribution of five random points can be forced into a pentagram. I’m quite sure you could draw a much better pentagram by linking five pubs or five schools or five hospitals or five police stations. It doesn’t mean they are worshipping the devil – it just means there are five of them.

Can we please knock this ridiculous Cremers story into the long grass once and for all? As far as I recall Cremers never said she found bloodstained ties. What I believe she said was:

“Cremers had noticed a large black box in D'Onston's room, and one day, while the doctor was out, she looked inside the box. She found some books and also some black ties that had dried, dull stains at the back. She thought the stains might be blood.”

Thinking something might be blood is entirely different from it being blood. How would she know what the stains were unless she had them analysed? They could have been anything, sweat, paint, cocoa, coffee, tea and so on. But lets us just say for the sake of argument it was blood. How could blood get on a gentlemen’s tie in those days? Much the same as it gets on the back of your tie or collar nowadays, by cutting yourself shaving. Don’t forget the cutthroat razor is not so name because it is perfectly safe!

Pentagram – The 'Macnaghten-Five' Victims of 'Jack the Ripper' (Click to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2010

[Phil Carter]

GM,

They don't know what they are missing...or in for!

Its -11C here today, and hasn't been above freezing since Dec 18th!!

best wishes and good luck to all getting the snow cleared!

Phil

[Howard Brown]

Grave:

I feel like crawling into a grave after shoveling out there around 6 PM. All the places to put this stuff have been exhausted and we've got two more snowfalls coming next week. Over 6 feet so far in less than 5 weeks here.
Not gonna be easy to make work tomorrow...unless Nina shovels faster.

[The Grave Maurice]

Its like Canada already over here.

Lucky you. Besides, a little snow won't hurt ya.

[Howard Brown]

Tom:

Your guess as to whatever reason he or anyone else would have for stepping outside is as good as mine.

Yet, I would think anyone's desire to bend an elbow while already in the hospital would register low on the scale...considering that if he got caught, its out on the streets for him and anyone else for that matter that would attempt it.

Come help me shovel. Its like Canada already over here.