What remained consistent through the C5?

[sdreid]

Looking at it in 10 day time frames, there wasn't really an "October lull".

Hi Stan,

Thanks for putting that in an easily understandable framework....I dont think I get in trouble for what I say as much as how I say it.

And your point is well taken, it could just be coincidence that he was actually successful with only those 5 victims, and missed or foiled attempts might have changed that pattern dramatically if included in his nights of terror...but what interests me here is that we do have 2 perhaps foiled attempts on record as his kills, Liz and Polly. Both situations involved laymen finding the bodies first, and it is possible both were incomplete kills...if these were Jacks victims. Both still within the "10 days rule" though.

Of course that would depend on whether the abdominal mutilations on Polly were a precursor to organ extractions, and his time was cut short...pardon the pun...and if Diemshutz did in fact interrupt the killer from further mutilations.

Best regards Stan.

[sdreid]

Yes, to put it another way, 5 were slain in the aforementioned 10 day period and 0 were killed in the 20 days following, a time double the length. By odds, 1 or 2 should have been killed in the first bracket and 3 or 4 should have been murdered in the second. That might mean something or it might mean nothing but I think it should be noted.

The "same" 20 days each month, Mike? (Again "or so" creeps in... beware of woolly criteria!)

He might simply not have found an easy victim and/or the right circumstances as readily in September/October as he had between Aug 31st/Sept 8th. It's not as if women were queuing up to put themselves in ideal positions to be murdered, and I have little doubt that Jack endured some abortive missions during his brief reign of terror. He may even have been snubbed on more than one occasion.

Hi Sam,

Really the only reason I added "or so" is to account for the different values for those 4 months due to their actual length, 30 or 31 days in these cases.

I don't doubt that there may have been foiled or aborted attempts either, I think many Ripperologist's money is on that bet when it comes to Liz Stride, and perhaps Polly... but he doesn't have any that aroused police suspicions... even in retrospect, unless they are among the "non-canonicals".

To be precise, Canonicals are not killed after the 10th,... until the month is at end. So my question is why do they think he only killed these 5 women...where are the suspected foiled attempts, why have they slipped into relative obscurity,...and what might explain the absence of something Jack-ish happening from the 10th to the end of that same month? Or his absence in general in October?

Best regards Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

Are we to believe he justs puts the knife in the drawer for the same 20 or so days each month, until the month end arrives?

The "same" 20 days each month, Mike? (Again "or so" creeps in... beware of woolly criteria!)

He might simply not have found an easy victim and/or the right circumstances as readily in September/October as he had between Aug 31st/Sept 8th. It's not as if women were queuing up to put themselves in ideal positions to be murdered, and I have little doubt that Jack endured some abortive missions during his brief reign of terror. He may even have been snubbed on more than one occasion.

[anna]

This is just a thought folks,...what about the guy who inspects the doss houses...can't remember if this takes place weekly or monthly,but I was thinking that if the same guy visited,they might know him enough to not fear instantly,even have a short conversation with, he may overhear their first name,or where they are heading off to,so know the general area of where they solicit.Not only that he may be a familiar face in the area,and with Kelly could have seen her around and about while he was in Dorset Street.

Morning Sam,

Although it is difficult to assess if there was a "monthly dates" pattern with only 5 victims as you say, there is that 20 day or more gap where he doesn't kill anyone that we know of,...during the months he does kill.

In essence, there are only 1 or 2 days within the same 10 or 11 days of each month, that he killed people on.

Nichols- 31st
Chapman - 8th
Stride/Eddowes - 30th
Kelly - 9th

Add to that the fact that all kill dates occur either on a weekend, or the day of, before, or after a holiday, then the only other alleged or potential Ripper victim that meets that criteria is;

Tabram, Bank Holiday Monday, the 7th.

I think this could be addressed by something that requires his departure from the area mid-month. That could be a myriad of things, Job on cargo ships, traveling salesman, rail worker, circus performer, snake oil salesman posing as a doctor....but the dates and gaps don't make sense if its a local man with a local job. Or even an unemployed one.

Why wouldn't there be a killing on say the 15th of the month, if he lived and worked there? Are we to believe he justs puts the knife in the drawer for the same 20 or so days each month, until the month end arrives?

My best regards Sam as always.

[sdreid]

Hi Sam,

Yes, it could easily all be happenstance but it's one of those things that might have some significance so it's perilous to ignore. The small sample of 5 leaves about everything in the case up in the air, that is, perhaps the victims being prostitutes had nothing to do with his choices, maybe that's just who he ran into first when he was out on his campaign.

[Sam Flynn]

So something preoccupies him, or takes him away from that location, from around the 10th of each month until the final day or two in the month.

Its an odd pattern without having some explanation for that gap.

The sample size of 5 is really too small to attribute "oddness", or indeed consistency, to the perceived gap, Mike. Besides which, "from around the 10th day" and "until the final day or two" are vague enough criteria in themselves to render any attribution of significance questionable.

[Sam Flynn]

Maybe the Ripper gets paid at the end of the month - so for one or two weeks he has some money to venture out with...

An interesting suggestion, Nemo, but surely Jack the Ripper's "hobby" wasn't a particularly expensive one. I assume he didn't buy a super-duper knife every time he went out, and he wouldn't have been charged for walking about in the small hours either. A few pennies to entice his prey might have been all that he'd needed - if that.

[Nemo]

Hi All

Maybe the Ripper gets paid at the end of the month - so for one or two weeks he has some money to venture out with...

I take it for granted that most workers of the time would have been paid daily or weekly, so if someone was paid monthly, would it indicate a professional man?

Hi JSchmidt,

"Was the age and the "profession" important at all? Or just the vulnerability of the victims? Were younger prostitutes more common amidst the safer confines of the brothels and the older, more worn down ones more common out on the streets?"

I think that is a good question, my sense is that yes, younger women were better draws for bordellos, and the women "Jack" killed didnt have the sort of protection that brothels offered. I think its possible it was whores because they were the only women out alone after midnight on the streets. And he killed women because it was womens abdomens that held his prize....IMHO.

Sam, I agree that we cant start assuming that all the "placements" have some meaning, but many were done, it appears, with intent.

The issue of the short gap between Polly and Annie you pointed out, the reason I feel thats is a secondary issue is because although the interval between is shorter than the rest, the pattern is evident...before the 10th of a month, and at the end of one. Even though he breaks that pattern in October, when he recommences, it is within that same "time of the month" framework.

My personal opinion is that the times he does not kill in East London, its because he cant. So something preoccupies him, or takes him away from that location, from around the 10th of each month until the final day or two in the month. I would think sailors and boats were likely prospects, and even Victoria Regina I believe suggested checking ships and their logs.

Its an odd pattern without having some explanation for that gap.

My best regards Sam, all.

[paul emmett]

Of course they don't (of course, only one breast was found there), but let's not go overboard in suggesting that every single organ or limb - whether excised or still attached - was "deliberately" placed by the killer.

Hello, Sam. Even I might not say every organ, but I do feel that the placement of the breasts(at head and feet) was purposive. Indeed, isn't that ONE of the problems with the Maybrick diary, which says, like McCarthy, that they were on the table? JTR knows where he put her breasts, and her hand on her stomach would have only gotten in his way.

Paul

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

I think what the short gap represents in the two mentioned is insignifigant

Ah - but how can you quantify that? Over and above gut feeling, that is.

and Kate thimble was one of a thousand things on her at the time, so why only the thimble falls out?

Um... because it wasn't only the thimble. Buttons were found as well, and her bonnet had fallen away from her head. There may have been other items found on the ground that were not recorded for posterity.

Pushed or placed, there is no sound argument that was not purposefully done by the killer.

I never said that it wasn't purposeful - but bear in mind that "purpose" might simply mean getting the arm out of the way. Besides, "pushed into the stomach", as recorded, sounds far more dramatic than simply "laid across the empty stomach cavity". Because it sounds more dramatic, we are apt to make too much of a big deal out of it.

And excised breasts do not naturally fall under a head.

Of course they don't (of course, only one breast was found there), but let's not go overboard in suggesting that every single organ or limb - whether excised or still attached - was "deliberately" placed by the killer.

[paul emmett]

Paul,

I'm sorry, but I don't understand a lot of the questions you ask, so it's difficult for me to answer them.
Tom Wescott

Tom, we are on different wave lengths then, because I was not asking any questions. My last post was a response to NOV9 who was quoting you about Kent saying Chapman's hands were curled up around her throat. I referred her to my earlier post on this thread(post #23) where I quoted Chandler and Phillips to show that her hands were not curled around her neck.

In post #23, I was also emphasizing Dr. Phillips use of the word "placed," in order to show that Chapman was posed.

Paul