Sometimes, a clear the air thing helps.. will this?

[tnb]

Stewart - I may be wrong but that is an interesting reference to NINE victims between 1887-1889 given the time, I was under the impression that at the time of the murders a lot of the popular press had the victim count at 7 (including Tabram and I assume Smith, or 'Fairy Fay'), and quite a few mooted the point re. Coles (as did Scotland Yard) but who are they proposing as no. 9? I was under the impression that by the 1890's most within the medico-legal professions were working largely along the lines of McNaghten's '5'?

1894 is the year of the Cutbush story obviously, and a proposed date for the Mcnaghten Memoranda on that basis (as we all know) - do we think this piece may fit into that particular puzzle in some way? Or was it at the time too obscure to register?

Does anyone know where Hamilton/ Godkin got their info from regarding the Whitechapel murders? Is there a link with a case doctor here or is it purely anecdotal? The latter would suggest that the slight discrepancies (ie MJK being naked) may be nothing more sinister than Chinese whispers across the Atlantic.

That said - would finding a pair of breasts under the head and a uterus elsewhere in the room a pretty good hint towards a body's gender???

[Phil Carter]

Hello Stewart,

I have read and re-read your posting of the original pages from the book you posess. (Thank you for doing so) And although I can see the obvious referral to MJK, there is a minor point I wish to make.

It does NOT specifically say the heart was missing...

quote..

"... In this case to be sure, all the organs except the heart were found scattered about the room..."

That can, in my humble opinion, be read that the heart was, for example, laying loose within the body cavity, or elsewhere on her body or on her bed.
The writer has also said that the victim was naked, which she was not.

It may be picking at points, but it doesn't actually state the heart was missing, which was the original basis of my point.

respectfully,

Phil

....

[Stewart P Evans]

Many Such Examples

It strikes me as ironic that for years there was so much speculation about Mary's injuries until the Post Mortem report turned up but all along the information including the missing heart is here going practically unnoticed

There are many such examples of information in this case 'going unnoticed' for many years. The 'age of enlightenment' has not been with us very long.

[belinda]

It strikes me as ironic that for years there was so much speculation about Mary's injuries until the Post Mortem report turned up but all along the information including the missing heart is here going practically unnoticed

[Stewart P Evans]

Interested

For anyone who might be interested, my copy of A System of Legal Medicine is the U.S. 1894 edition and here are the relevant pages -

[Debra A]

Hello Debs,
Thanks for the reply.
A System of Legal Medicine [Volume 1] was published in late 1894 and reviewed in the New England Medical Gazette in January 1895.Volume 2 came along a little later I believe.

AGREED. The information was in plain sight, yet nobody knew about it until recently after research. And because of its obscurity, nobody in England at least would have thought of looking in that Gazette.

Thanks Phil, not to be hammering the point home or anything, but just to get things in prespective maybe. Although it was an American volume first printed in New York in 1894 in two volumes, it was also published in England in 1895, and reviewed in the Times, mentioning Dr Bond's contributions to the book.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Harry,
Thank you for your reply,

The conspiracy word is, I admit, something I try to avoid. However, it is difficult to give a correct terminology to such a varied set of things that I call simply wrong.
As I said in my earlier posting, if the combined brains of thousands upon thousands of people, genuinely interested in furthering this case towards some sort of answers, (and that is shown by the infinate amount of trying on the merest possibility of every part of every situation on these boards), and it gets us all nowhere...then... we are either all wasting our time, or, it is about time some people came clean. Because there are people around who know more than they say. Its all a game. And I think that the younger generation deserve better than to be led on into joining the rest of us having been led down one garden path after another over many many years.

Yes Harry, it does happen. In all walks of society. Maybe I'm just old fashioned. But honesty now and again is a good thing. After 121 years, I think the next generation deserve some.

best wishes

Phil

[harry]

Phil,
While I see no neccessity for a cover up concerning the victims,I do agree to your general idea of a conspiracy of sorts.I know only too well,from my own experiences,that conspiracy at all levels,has been,and still is, more widely practised than many want to believe,and the law enforcement agencies are no exception.

'Not in the public interest to know',is a well used explanation,and if the public is'nt told,then usually, someone somewhere has conspired not to tell them,or so it appears to me,and that too is my experience.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil. Gullibility is right. I don't see how the Maybrick Diary and the Royal/Freemason theories have survived (I just watched the "From Hell" movie, oh dear!). But these are the theories that sell books and movies, as you so rightly point out.

Do you think the purloiners did their deeds because the material would become valuable or as keepsakes?

The best.
LC

Hello Lynn,
Thanks again for the reply.

As you say, they sell books and movies. Sensationalism sells.

Some would even say these boards contain sensationalism. This little rant of mine might even be called that by some. Come to think of it it probably won't be long before that accusation gets thrown my way, but I have nothing to gain from it, so it would be pointless to say it.

The difference is simple. I am asking for some openess and honesty. It will get on some people's nerves that I do it. So? What harm does it do except get the idea into people's heads that not all of us are fooled and not all of us think the game is funny any more.

As you can see on the above posting, I have no problem conceding. But the points NOBODY dare argue with are there and some people know why, who and when.

As for those purloiners from the 1970's/80's, they might have been doing it with a book in mind, but as it can take 10 years for a book, then that theory is thin now. Maybe they just wanted a piece of JTR History. I don't know.

What I do know is that the papers went missing from the very start, (I read somewhere that there were 1600 papers known by Abberline to be in his dept files...). And that Bond report, according to what I have been told, wasn't there in the 1970's when the first researchers gained access. (As far as we know.....)

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Phil, the point is that the information was not withheld by Bond or Hebbert like you say, but freely given for publication in a book, hardly a cover up to keep the information secret then? It makes no difference how obscure or popular that book would have been at the time, the details of MJK's heart being taken were included. It was discovered after 1987 yes, but it's been available for anyone to discover it since at least 1900.

Like others have already said, and I agree, it's understandable that the information was kept from the press at the time, and it wasn't the only case either, certain details of Elizabeth Jackson's mutilations in 1889 were also kept from the press at the time of her murder.

Hello Debs,
Thanks for the reply.
A System of Legal Medicine [Volume 1] was published in late 1894 and reviewed in the New England Medical Gazette in January 1895.Volume 2 came along a little later I believe.

AGREED. The information was in plain sight, yet nobody knew about it until recently after research. And because of its obscurity, nobody in England at least would have thought of looking in that Gazette.

I cannot argue with the witholding of info by the police, no. But Bagster Philllips certainly didn't mention it, and had it not been for the Bond papers in 1987, would we have been alerted to looking for it anywhere else?
Many have commented upon Bagster Phillips actions that day were strange. Whether he was asked to NOT let this info out, by stopping the jury asking any questions, is another matter. But I will concede the point of the heart info being witheld by the police for a reason.


I have no problem holding up my hands if I am wrong. Thank you Debs for helping me .


best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Phil. Gullibility is right. I don't see how the Maybrick Diary and the Royal/Freemason theories have survived (I just watched the "From Hell" movie, oh dear!). But these are the theories that sell books and movies, as you so rightly point out.

Do you think the purloiners did their deeds because the material would become valuable or as keepsakes?

The best.
LC

[Phil Carter]

I think everyone involved would be more than happy if the case was closed....... If there are in fact people who have previously unseen (by the public) files on the case, then I imagine they are keeping them secret for the same reasons the Police at the time were reluctant to discuss the case. And, yes, I am very interested in the Special Branch files on the Ripper, but we will probably never see those.


Rob H

Hello Rob, thank you again for your reply,

Three of your points above that I feel I must reply to.

1) That everyone would be happy if the case was closed... oh no... not by a long chalk. The GENUINE ones amongst us would. Yes.

2) What reason Rob, why keep the files unseen? What possible reason is enough to warrant secrecy after 121 years?

3) Special Branch Files... we will never see them? Really? Perhaps some already have..........

An example was this comment, in reply a question about the Special Branch Files held at Kew, in a previous thread I had called "In the name of honesty" .. posting Nr 147, by Mr. Trevor Marriot replying to Chris, who had quoted me...--

"Just wanted to say anyone thinking of going to Kew save yourself a journey and unnecessary expense there is nothing there of interest "

Oh really?

Now, how would anybody know that?

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that some (perhaps future) author is planting material as a prelude for an eventual book? Or something of that sort? Well, that is quite believable.

Good luck in getting the truth!

The best.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Thanks for the reply...
Sadly, not just that. It is way beyond that level now. The whole machine is divided into parts. The mass media to attract the greatest audience(film), The internet, books, et al.
Whenever there is GENUINE researching, with GENUINE researchers and historians, it will be countered by planters of false "clues" to deliberately mislead and or make money.
Another little snippet will turn up soon, because the whole thing needs to keep rolling. And to keep it rolling, the "evidence" has to be more and more convincing. You see, there is money to be made in JTR. Millions. And a few people have been and are scrupulous enough to use the gullability that naturally exists. As long as the mystery remains exactly that, it will carry on and on. Because there are DISHONEST people around.

And more and more people are sucked into it within each generation that is attracted to the mystery.

And that I find terrible. I have been at this for a long, long time. And I have sat and watched it from the sidelines.
I thought now, right now, is the time, perhaps, to get some of the dishonest ones to come clean. I reckon 121 years of being led a merry dance from left right and centre should stop.

Like I said...again.

It would be a refreshing feeling that someone somewhere said stop too.
Because frankly, some of this is very unpalatable. And the innocent ones get dragged in.

Have you noticed something Lynn? Amongst other things...No one mentions the bit about the KNOWN people who visited the PRO with permission by letter in the purloining years? No one mentions that high ranking policeman from Croydon and his actions in all this? Why?
Because no one dares own up. And there are people around who KNOW who, why and when. And stay silent. There is an old saying.
Silence is the cruellest of lies.
Because it goes out over the innocent ones.

And me? I am a nobody Lynn, so I don't care if I get pilloried for this. But Ive got the guts to say it loud, while others just whisper.

Wouldn't it be lovely with a slate wiped clean of all the rubbish?

Hmm.. Merry Xmas I say.

best wishes

Phil

[Debra A]

Hello Debs,
Thanks for your reply,
1900? In an obscure piece of writing that hardly anyone knew about? Because for 87 odd years after that, it was generally UNKNOWN.To quote your good self...

" in a medical jurisprudence textbook that has been discussed on the boards before.
A System of Legal Medicine, there are different editions of this volume in print so i don't know the exact date when the information first appeared in it, but it is definitely in the 1900 edition I have seen. The details were supplied by Dr Hebbert, from Dr. Bond's notes."

Umm... Debs, who found this? And when?...was it found SINCE the 1987 report turned up, or before? Because apart from these boards, I have never seen it referred to.

Respectfully, as always,

Phil

Phil, the point is that the information was not withheld by Bond or Hebbert like you say, but freely given for publication in a book, hardly a cover up to keep the information secret then? It makes no difference how obscure or popular that book would have been at the time, the details of MJK's heart being taken were included. It was discovered after 1987 yes, but it's been available for anyone to discover it since at least 1900.

Like others have already said, and I agree, it's understandable that the information was kept from the press at the time, and it wasn't the only case either, certain details of Elizabeth Jackson's mutilations in 1889 were also kept from the press at the time of her murder.

[lynn cates]

understanding

Hello Phil. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that some (perhaps future) author is planting material as a prelude for an eventual book? Or something of that sort? Well, that is quite believable.

Good luck in getting the truth!

The best.
LC