Just for the Jolly

[Sam Flynn]

Hello, Phil

No...nobody KNOWS if they entered the building Sam. And we don't know they DIDN'T either.

The problem is that those with a conspiratorial bent tend to assert - as fact - that they did. That's bad form.

BUT, the newspapers REPORTED THREE distinct individuals there at the scene.

Amongst many, many others.

It DOESN'T add up the a senior Post Office Official was there at all!
You asked what he was doing there... I say that he was asked, because for some reason he was ASKED to be there.

Why on earth would one have asked a senior post office chappie to attend a Late Victorian crime scene?

A thought experiment:

The "Joseph Merrick Show" opens in the East End, and the newspapers report that, amongst scores of other visitors, a senior police officer, an MP and the Postmaster General were spotted going in through the entrance. Some suggest that they had been asked to attend in an official capacity, others that they wanted to gawk at the latest freakish sensation to whet the palates of the thrill-seeking Victorian public.

Which is more likely?

[Phil Carter]

What doesn't add up is a senior official from the post office getting in on the act. I reiterate - what on earth was he doing there, if not to have a good gawp like the rest of the crowd?

And, again, nowhere does it say that any of these dignitaries actually entered 13 Miller's Court.

Hello again,

No...nobody KNOWS if they entered the building Sam. And we don't know they DIDN'T either.
BUT, the newspapers REPORTED THREE distinct individuals there at the scene.
Not just anyone, not any old Irish copper, not any old Post Office worker, not any old Political person, but a SENIOR Post Office Official, A representative of The Royal Irish Constabulary ( I think we can safely presume a high ranking officer), and a member of her majesty's parliament.

These THREE, amongst the many who must have come to the place. They stick out like a sore thumb in Dorset Street!

Exactly. It DOESN'T add up the a senior Post Office Official was there at all!
You asked what he was doing there... I say that he was asked, because for some reason he was ASKED to be there. Likewise the Royal Irish Constabulary.

I pose this point from a different angle.

WHY aren't these people, OBVIOUSLY recognised by the London Press, NAMED??? There is no reason not to is there?

If in a crowd to gawp, then the press have no reason NOT to name them.
If the press had been asked not to for any reason, then why mention them, as a group, being there at all?

I see no particular line of connection with any clarity here, thats not why I am wondering. But IF Sam, IF, there was a Fenian interest in some way, (as you must admit the Police backgrounds themselves are riddled with an Irish connection and the work against the Fenians), then it CAN explain two of the three. The RIC and the MP.

Thats why I cannot see The Post Office guy there for no reason. Having a gawp is just too easy! It doesn't ring true in my view.

And nobody ever visited the other, later murder sites did they? Not as far as I can recall. No "special gawpers" there, as with the 4/5 previous to Millers Court! I cannot remember ONE unusual person turning up reported in the press after the event.

SO WHY JUST THIS ONE???

I apologise if I am wrong, but I believe that all other visitors to this and all other murders were people directly connected to the case. I dont mean the usual crowds Sam, I mean dignitaries. THERE AREN'T any ...are there?
So why here, at 13 Miller's Court, in broad daylight? Not exactly a subtle, mix in with the crowd thing is it?

with all respect

best wishes

Phil

What doesn't add up is a senior official from the post office getting in on the act. I reiterate - what on earth was he doing there, if not to have a good gawp like the rest of the crowd?

And, again, nowhere does it say that any of these dignitaries actually entered 13 Miller's Court. We have articles in a couple of newspapers (actually, one article - evidently a press agency product, edited differently) that talks of the throngs of people who flocked to Dorset Street to ogle the scene of the Ripper's most outrageous murder. I wouldn't be at all surprised if WS Gilbert, The 1st Lord of the Admiralty and Arthur Conan Doyle had turned up there too.

This was the "Golden Age" of mystery, sensation and freak-shows, remember.

It seems to me that when toffs wanted to go slumming to see the decadence and horrors that you mention Sam, it was at night, when the "zoo" was in full swing.

Not during the day when they would be elbow to elbow with people who havent washed or eaten.

I agree that there would be the "spectator" element from the better parts of Society and government to any or all of the killing sites...I dont agree that the mix I mentioned would choose to visit that courtyard in the height of the crowds and in broad daylight.

So that suggests to me that they may have been there on business of some sort.

All the best Sam

[Sam Flynn]

It doesn't add up.

What doesn't add up is a senior official from the post office getting in on the act. I reiterate - what on earth was he doing there, if not to have a good gawp like the rest of the crowd?

And, again, nowhere does it say that any of these dignitaries actually entered 13 Miller's Court. We have articles in a couple of newspapers (actually, one article - evidently a press agency product, edited differently) that talks of the throngs of people who flocked to Dorset Street to ogle the scene of the Ripper's most outrageous murder. I wouldn't be at all surprised if WS Gilbert, The 1st Lord of the Admiralty and Arthur Conan Doyle had turned up there too.

This was the "Golden Age" of mystery, sensation and freak-shows, remember.

[belinda]

Unwarranted interruption: This line reminds me that a local channel is currently re-running all the Father Ted episodes. That has to be one of funniest shows ever made.

I love Father Ted

The Three Ages Of Elvis is a work of genius

Would you like a cup of Tea now? Go on!

[Phil Carter]

Hi again,

Sam, I really am willing to believe the old pals act might, just might have pulled this off... but the place was still cooking to boiling point. A couple of MP's, The Royal Irish Constabulary and A Post Office Official? Thats one heck of a combination.

(And no, I'm not mentioning what you mentioned again either..lol)

I just find it incredible that a group of people that SEEMINGLY, and I say that because they are not named, have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SOLVING OF THE CASE, ....are allowed to visit the scene of London's most atrocious murder, seemingly one of a SERIES of murders,..... that is now worldwide news, people baying for resignations left right and centre, Queen Vic passing on messages on the subject, the Press digging in every hole to get something to connect to the murders, The Police under INTENSE pressure from all sides... etc etc etc

As much that I know of all the "connections" you speak of, Ham and Egg ties, Eton and Harrow, Lodge this or Lodge that, Gents club in Knightsbridge, Parliamentary or political back scratching... I just feel that there would be a REASON for these people to visit. That, surely, is more likely? It would help if any newspaper actually recognised the people who visited the place and named them. Which makes me wonder... why just say, A Post Office Official? If the newspaper reporter knew what job the man did, then he must have known his name...so why not print it? Ditto, the MP's mentioned.
Why hold back on those names?
The police that visited the place from the murder onwards were named. Why not "X" of the Royal Irish Constabulary?

It doesn't add up.

best wishes

Phil

Its not that your positions isnt reasonable Sam, perhaps they were there for a look see like many of the pathetic souls that lived in actual fear of this killer.

But thats not written in stone either, and if their visits were connected somehow, then its as I said, a very interesting mix of individual interests. How they combine on one point of interest is where I suggest my fanciful ideas.....encompassing the alleged Double Event, the last 2 murders and a robbery which may have netted Fenian interests some 1500L in cash alone.

In the LVP in Whitechapel, thats HUGE money.
Why do people often kill....for love or money....or the love of money.

All the best Sam

[Sam Flynn]

A Post Office Official using his contacts to gawp? Honestly?

What on earth was the Postmaster General (or whoever the heck he was) doing in a grotty little room in Spitalfields, that scarcely had a functional lock on the door, never mind a letter-box?

I cannot honestly see that people who have NOTHING to do with the case be allowed in 13, Miller's Court on the whim of curiosity because X said so.

Not even during the heyday of "The Club" and the "Old School Tie", Phil, not to mention "The Brotherhood"? (Note: That, I promise, will be my one and only venture into Masonic territory in this context )

Besides, although it wouldn't surprise me if they had managed to wangle it, I don't see it written that they definitely entered 13 Miller's Court:

Morning Advertiser, 13th November 1888: "Two officials of the Royal Irish Parliament [sic] and a prominent Post Office official inspected the scene of the murder";

Irish Times, 13th November 1888: "Among those [emphasis added] who visited the locality were two officials of the Royal Irish Constabulary, a prominent Post Office official, and two or three members of Parliament".

What is clear is that these visits happened on the 12th November, long after the body had been removed, so I don't see why the room couldn't have been opened up to a select few, with friends in the know. It seems to me, however, that the abovementioned dignitaries were only a handful among numerous other visitors, and that it was the "scene of the crime" in its most general sense that was meant. If you read the Morning Advertiser's entry in full, it should become clear that what probably happened was a major gawp-fest in Dorset Street:

"Throughout the day a large crowd loitered about Dorset-street discussing the crime, and the most extraordinary statements were made by persons who professed to know everything about the matter. The visitors were not, however, confined to the poorer classes, for besides two officials of the Royal Irish Parliament a prominent Post Office official inspected the scene of the murder."

[Phil Carter]

He was just another morbid Victorian thrill-seeker, of that there can be little doubt - likewise all the other gawpers, I'm sure.

A Post Office Official using his contacts to gawp? Honestly? Not even a firm wristed handshake would carry the mark of authority to get access to that site! If so, it must have had one pretty high up contact then, because the situation was contributary to ONE very high up person resigning from office.

Im sorry, I am NOT looking for a CERTAIN Fenian connection.. but it doesn't make sense.
There wasn't a queue of high ranking people at the Eddowes morg site, nor is there, as far as I am aware, a record of anybody else of high rank given permission or not, popping along to the murder scene in Miller's court. (If anyone knows different, please list the known people or persons who DID visit the site, and when.)

To be given permission to go to, and see a murder site, 12ft x 12ft, in the middle of the worst street in London, crowds in abundance,...surely.. LIKE TODAY'S murder sites, it cannot just an old pals act.
It would be far more logical to assume they had been asked to visit the site.

The combination of a Post Office Official and The Irish Constabulary in itself is strange.
Taken separately, I CAN see why a high ranking Irish Policeman who was there in London, would visit the place because of the victim's Irish birth...but only IF the police or politicians in London thought there be reason enough.

But a POST OFFICE OFFICIAL?.. It just doesn't make sense to say that this fellow was a friend of.... so he gave him the OK to pop down and have a gawp, just for curiosity. I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. It doesn't follow what happened before with any other murder, and SURELY there would have been other recognisable officialdom visiting 13 Miller's Court?

Far more the scenario that it was deemed that such a visit was of use to the case somehow.

I'm not a policeman, nor an ex-policeman. But I cannot honestly see that people who have NOTHING to do with the case be allowed in 13, Miller's Court on the whim of curiosity because X said so.
There are plenty of ex-policemen who know how the force works on this site.
Perhaps they would be able to throw light on this?

best wishes, as always,

Phil

[The Grave Maurice]

...feck off back to Ireland...

Unwarranted interruption: This line reminds me that a local channel is currently re-running all the Father Ted episodes. That has to be one of funniest shows ever made.

[Sam Flynn]

Added to a Senior Post Office Official

On a serious note, ask yourself what on earth he was doing there, if not simply because he used his contacts to get a good ogle at this most sensational of crime scenes.


And - no - I won't buy any attempt to "explain" his presence by suggesting that he was there to trace (imagined) letters back to Ireland, or similar guff that doesn't stand up to scrutiny in the context of those pre-postcode, pre-barcode and pre-forensic days.

He was just another morbid Victorian thrill-seeker, of that there can be little doubt - likewise all the other gawpers, I'm sure.

[Sam Flynn]

The day they visited, albeit perhaps independently, was the Monday morning or Tuesday morning after the murder Sam, at the height of the crowds still gathering in Dorset for a peek into the courtyard.

So they planned to feck off back to Ireland as soon as the parade finished, did they?

Hi Phil,
As I've pointed out before, it was the day of the Lord Mayor's Show, and a number of dignitaries would have been in town for the purpose of attending the parade. Now, as there was a far more interesting spectacle taking place a few hundred yards away in Miller's Court, it is perfectly understandable that those in a position to do so might use their influence to get a peek at the action. How much more tempting must it have been for visitors from "overseas" - viz., the Irish Sea - to incorporate a viewing of this gruesome tableau vivant (or "mourant", as the case may be).

Pretty straightforward, when you think about it

The day they visited, albeit perhaps independently, was the Monday morning or Tuesday morning after the murder Sam, at the height of the crowds still gathering in Dorset for a peek into the courtyard.

Parliament had just reconvened the week Mary was killed, it seems odd that a death of an unfortunate however unpleasant and newsworthy should take some of them to a small smelly courtyard in the East End when crowds would be pressing in at them and police would be required to keep them at bay. Added to a Senior Post Office Official, and some members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, it is as Ive said before an interesting mix of visitors to a street whores murder scene.

Now add the fact that Abberline re-sieved the ashes in Marys fireplace Saturday morning with Reid and some others, after that had been done the previous day. He must have been looking for something that was so small or innocuous that the initial search might have missed it.....for the purposes of my fictional "just for jolly", I suggest that what they looked for was traces of stamps.

Its unprovable and purely speculative...in the nature of the thread.

All the best Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Phil,

The visitation of MP's, the Royal Irish Constabulary and a Senior Post Office official to No.13 Millers Court makes very little sense. What possible reason, need or purpose would the Post Office have in No.13 Millers Court?
And the Royal Irish Constabulary? Err... now that DOES smack of the Fenism issue.

As I've pointed out before, it was the day of the Lord Mayor's Show, and a number of dignitaries would have been in town for the purpose of attending the parade. Now, as there was a far more interesting spectacle taking place a few hundred yards away in Miller's Court, it is perfectly understandable that those in a position to do so might use their influence to get a peek at the action. How much more tempting must it have been for visitors from "overseas" - viz., the Irish Sea - to incorporate a viewing of this gruesome tableau vivant (or "mourant", as the case may be).

Pretty straightforward, when you think about it

[belinda]

OK This is based on a favourite film of mine The Leopard Man. The Plot A Nightclub singer brings a Leopard in to upstage her more popular rival but the Leopard gets away. Later that night a girl is killed. Two more deaths follow but was it all the work of the Leopard?

No. Only the first girl was killed by the Leopard. This killing sets off a local Leopard expert into mimicing the killings because of his fascination with Leopards

Did something like this happen in Whitechappel