General Questions Not Yet Answered

[Suzi]

Exactly John and Colin

I would question how many people/posters these days could even begin to imagine being totally homeless and walking the streets for let's face it a lot more than 4d for a Gin/Doss.

Of course there are many poor souls of both sexes, carrying the modern 'banner', which must not be ignored.

This is not the modern day heroin/crack habit- which I'd imagine costs a lot more -but of course the problems are the same -ditto the risks- always the chance of not making the cash or being 'damaged' shall we say-by an over zealous/lunatic client. That still exists I'm sure.

What we're talking about here in the LVP was just a toddle out of a common lodging house- not having the required 4d or whatever- onto the dank foul streets to find a 'customer' willing to part with some coin for a 'jiggy' in an unspeakable alley full of things best not imagined- so that a woman could finally grab some sleep in what passed for a bed- probably feeling cold,filthy,tired and fairly hopeless.... until tomorrow when the whole thing started again- OK they probably 'Spent the doss money four times over' but Hey ... that numbness probably helped against the horror, the cold,the wet and the emptiness- and that's before they even started thinking about The Ripper- which was probably the least of their worries....'Don't fear for me' etc etc .......

Suz x

[John Bennett]

And we should also stop assuming that these women inherently abided by some sort of 'canon', with regard to their 'business' practices.

I think we can rest assured (I know I can) that while some of the 'dolly-mops' who tended to congregate in the rookeries of Dorset Street and Flower & Dean Street, in the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, had the fortitude to demand payment before rendering 'services', others most certainly did not; … that while some of these vagrants might have insisted that 'business' be conducted in places of their choosing, others would most certainly have followed the offer of a few pennies into any secluded spot in the whole of the metropolis; … that while etc…

Absolutely. We can probably never know for sure the exact 'working practices' of individual women drawn to that particular 'profession'. There were probably all manner of ways and means.

I wish people would stop talking about "prostitutes". We're mainly talking about superannuated casual prostitutes - not young professional hookers - for whom prostitution wasn't the only means of getting a little bit of money. They were just as likely to have begged, accepted a charitable donation, sold trinkets for a few coppers, as they were to have sold sexual services.

And we should also stop assuming that these women inherently abided by some sort of 'canon', with regard to their 'business' practices.

I think we can rest assured (I know I can) that while some of the 'dolly-mops' who tended to congregate in the rookeries of Dorset Street and Flower & Dean Street, in the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, had the fortitude to demand payment before rendering 'services', others most certainly did not; … that while some of these vagrants might have insisted that 'business' be conducted in places of their choosing, others would most certainly have followed the offer of a few pennies into any secluded spot in the whole of the metropolis; … that while etc…

[Sam Flynn]

I wish people would stop talking about "prostitutes". We're mainly talking about superannuated casual prostitutes - not young professional hookers - for whom prostitution wasn't the only means of getting a little bit of money. They were just as likely to have begged, accepted a charitable donation, sold trinkets for a few coppers, as they were to have sold sexual services.

The obsession with "prostitution" - created and fed by some books and most of the visual media over the years, and exacerbated by modern perceptions of the sex trade - is a major stumbling block that we must get over if we are to understand the social dynamics of the Victorian slums.

[jason_c]

Not sure where i stand on the self respect issue. Other than these women walked the streets largely to fund a drink habit. The most obvious comparison is with todays prostitutes funding a drugs habit, there's little self respect going on in either prostitute or punter.

As for payments, I would bet that money changed hands before any physical encounter. These women were street smart prostitutes. Money would be paid up front. This was likely demanded in the Ripper's case too.

Wether he ever got as far as handing money over before attacking them is another matter. As no money was found on the victims it does give a hint to a working class Ripper scenario.

[Robert]

There aren't many 80 year olds who weigh 400lbs.

[belinda]

Good talking to you Belinda, but it's sleep time for now. Perhaps we can try to make some sense of George Hutchinson next time.

That would certainly keep us occupied

[celticsun]

Neither do I

Good talking to you Belinda, but it's sleep time for now. Perhaps we can try to make some sense of George Hutchinson next time.

[belinda]

I don't think that the men who pay for these services have much self respect to begin with. Or empathy, for that matter.

Neither do I

[celticsun]

It certainly is. Do you think it affects the self respect of the men who pay for these womens services?

No supply without demand

I don't think that the men who pay for these services have much self respect to begin with. Or empathy, for that matter.

[belinda]

I'm trying to disagree without being disagreeable. Please do not think that I am without sympathy for these women. I certainly do realize their plight and do have sympathy for them. It seems to me that they life dealt them more than could handle and they turned to alcohol to dull the pain. Prostitution is a dirty, nasty business, however, and one that is bound to negatively affect one's self respect.

It certainly is. Do you think it affects the self respect of the men who pay for these womens services?

No supply without demand

[celticsun]

I'm not romatcising it.You have no right to say they had no self respect because they had to Prostitute themselves to get money.This is Victorian England we are talking about.What were they supposed to do. Go on the Dole?

I'm trying to disagree without being disagreeable. Please do not think that I am without sympathy for these women. I certainly do realize their plight and do have sympathy for them. It seems to me that they life dealt them more than could handle and they turned to alcohol to dull the pain. Prostitution is a dirty, nasty business, however, and one that is bound to negatively affect one's self respect.

[belinda]

I'll stand my ground on this one. Picture it in today's terms. A woman enters a man's car and performs a sex act. He may be 80 years old, may weigh 400 lbs, may not have bathed in a couple of weeks. It doesn't matter because she needs to feed her habit. That it something that would weigh heavily on her soul and in very short order. Don't romanticize prostitution.

I'm not romatcising it.You have no right to say they had no self respect because they had to Prostitute themselves to get money.This is Victorian England we are talking about.What were they supposed to do. Go on the Dole?

[celticsun]

Given their profession they can't have had much self respect.



I have to disagree with you there. They may have had to sell their bodies.That does not mean they had to sell their souls.

I'll stand my ground on this one. Picture it in today's terms. A woman enters a man's car and performs a sex act. He may be 80 years old, may weigh 400 lbs, may not have bathed in a couple of weeks. It doesn't matter because she needs to feed her habit. That it something that would weigh heavily on her soul and in very short order. Don't romanticize prostitution.

[belinda]

Given their profession they can't have had much self respect.



I have to disagree with you there. They may have had to sell their bodies.That does not mean they had to sell their souls.