Pinching the "Canon" fuse

[Sam Flynn]

The medics opinions, although subjective, were based upon their own findings, which were collected scientifically at the crime scene and post mortems, and presented legally at the Inquests, and therefore, must be of great value to any discussion.

I fundamentally disagree, Jon - certainly in respect of the objective details of the case that were irrefutably within Jack's control, and after-the-event speculation can logically have no bearing on what a killer did at the time of a given murder. In that respect, it is the medical notes of the wounds themselves that must take paramount importance, not the wider opinions in respect of same. Opinions are not evidence, no matter who gives them. They have no place in any objective discussion of the canon.

[Jon Guy]

any opinions - whether those of the medics, police or coroners - were and are subjective

If we have any hope of objectively discussing the "canon", then we must focus solely on what definitely happened to the victims

Hi Sam

The medics opinions, although subjective, were based upon their own findings, which were collected scientifically at the crime scene and post mortems, and presented legally at the Inquests, and therefore, must be of great value to any discussion.

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

You speak of abandoned housing and warehousing. I can't see any prostitute eager to conduct business in such a location. Spiders, rats, garbage, maybe squatters and who knows what else. Even before the Ripper, I am sure that these women didn't want to be in such a place at the total mercy of unknown and probably drunken customers. At least on the street, you could yell for help or try to run away. And Jack dragging his victim to such a place really seems quite unlikely.

And as for Mary being killed indoors, she was the only victim with her own place. That provides a very simple and logical explanation for what took place.

c.d.

Hi again folks,

I havent had time to complete my research on the stats but I will by this weekend. Thought Id address a couple of points in the meantime.....

Victor: "What about incresed police presence, vigilance committee patrols and alerted prostitutes making it more difficult to achieve his desired results outdoors, therefore he had no choice but to find more secluded spots (including indoors)"?

Me: The same situation existed back into early September after the first 2 kills, and after Martha's murder of course, which was still seen as possibly done by Jack by the authorities. When I think of the amount of abandoned housing and warehousing in the district...that someone who cut women into parts had the prviacy to do what he did because he felt compelled to fulfill his desires....what desires beyond cutting into dead women and extracting things do we see in the evidence prior to Kelly? Do we see any indication that the outdoor venue wasnt acceptable to him? Do we see in the early murders that he has any interest in peeling skin and flesh from bone, "posing" objects under the deceased for no reason related to cuttings or extractions? I think the reasons for moving indoors were there after Sept 8th.....and that they still seemed to be of no concern to the man on Oct 1st.


Tom: "Dr. Phillips: Nichols, Chapman and Kelly for sure killed by the same hand. Stride and Eddowes only possibles.

Me: A man who examined a few Canonicals. A man of some position...a man close to the cases...and one that wasnt sure that there were 5 kills by one man.

Dr. Bond: Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly all killed by the same hand.

Me: A man who examined one Canonical first hand, a man who contradicted every opinion that preceded his as to the possible skill/knowledge possessed by the killer..... a man who thought Alice MacKenzies killers showed skill and knowledge and yet used that to suggest that likely adds her to the Canonical Group, the group he suggested was killed by one man with no skill or knowledge, ..... a man who suggests many things including that the Ripper suffered from attacks of Homicidal and Erotic Mania, that he is middle aged and neatly and respectably dressed, that he is without a job, .......my point here is that he only saw 4 women, he obviously gives contradictory opinions, and he supposes a great deal about the suspects attire and occupation based on cuts. Not my personal go-to guy.

The Police: All seem to have agreed on Bond's 5 and some added Tabra and/or Coles and/or McKenzie."

Me: That the police suggested many killings were by one man isnt really a huge mystery, considering they had no clues to many, many unsolved murders at the time and to admit total failure in all those cases based on independent killers would have been disaster politically.

cd: "So let's keep in mind exactly what is being debated here before anybody goes off the deep end."

Me: Precisely. That would mean we have unsolved murders without any proven connections to any one killer or group.

Sam: ".....then we must focus solely on what definitely happened to the victims, for it is only these features of the murders that were caused personally by the murderer himself... or murderers, as the case may be".

Me: I would half agree with the above, what was done is the ONLY valid information.....I disagree that that information should exclude times, locations, probable attack sequences based on evidence, victim profile, and other information that you might call circumstantial Gareth. Circumstantial speculation would be that Liz Stride was killed by Michael Kidney cause it appears she was in the company of someone she knew based on some evidence....Circumstantial evidence suggests that Liz Stride did not fear her attacker at the moment of her attack, because she was holding breath fresheners.

This was a different time, not a time when Modern Serial killers are conscious and wary of the means the police have to catch them...not a time when hair, fiber or fingerprints were used in prosecutions, not a time when databases existed for other killer of this type...stranger vs stranger kills, not a time when there were surveillance cams, cell phones, online databases.....these men were not equipped or experienced enough to interpret this data,...in my opinion. Fear, politics, and money...those drove these investigations and thats no way to find a killer among "many homicidal maniacs"-(Macnaghten).

My best regards and promise for some comparisons on the filter idea in the next few days.

Cheers.

[lynn cates]

most important

Hello CD and Sam. I agree about the non-sacredness of the current canon.

And I should think that ascertaining which were killed by which hand would be most important. To take an example. I spend much time looking about for clues regarding Druitt. If, however, it could be established that either McKenzie or Coles died by the same hand as Polly and Annie, then I'd be wasting my time for obvious reasons.

Cheers.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Like I said yesterday, any opinions - whether those of the medics, police or coroners - were and are subjective, and whatever "X" said after the event was certainly not within the Ripper's direct control.

If we have any hope of objectively discussing the "canon", then we must focus solely on what definitely happened to the victims, for it is only these features of the murders that were caused personally by the murderer himself... or murderers, as the case may be.

[c.d.]

For the life of me, I cannot understand this obsession with the C5 and the furor that it causes as though we were debating evolution or whether the earth is the center of the universe. The C5 is not holy doctrine here guys. Let's get clear on this. It was simply an opinion put forth by the doctors and echoed by others over time. It wasn't issued by the Pope speaking "ex cathedra." People are free to accept or not accept it. Good arguments pro and con are put forth by both sides. So let's keep in mind exactly what is being debated here before anybody goes off the deep end.

My rant for the day.

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Tom

Bond thought McKenzie was a Ripper victim too.

[Tom_Wescott]

Wouldnt it be wiser for us to establish a scientific Canon, something that lends itself to analysis and less speculation,....something that is logical, not reactionary...something that can be proven within a reasonable doubt, or as close as we need to come to that here.........

Hi Michael. This has been done by the people most qualified - those involved in the investigation itself. Here's the short breakdown:

Dr. Phillips: Nichols, Chapman and Kelly for sure killed by the same hand. Stride and Eddowes only possibles.

Dr. Bond: Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly all killed by the same hand.

The Police: All seem to have agreed on Bond's 5 and some added Tabra and/or Coles and/or McKenzie.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

motivation

Hello Victor. That has been proposed before and cannot be ruled out a priori.

Of course, a good deal depends upon his motivation in killing and ripping. It could have been an abnormal psychological need. That would lend credence to your scenario. Other motives seem less compelling for a change of venue.

The best.
LC

[Victor]

there is no indication that he would ever move indoors or desired to.

Hi Mike,

What about incresed police presence, vigilance committee patrols and alerted prostitutes making it more difficult to achieve his desired results outdoors, therefore he had no choice but to find more secluded spots (including indoors)?

KR,
Vic.

ALL the useful criteria, I'd say, for that's the only objective evidence in existence that can be attributed solely to the handiwork of the killer. The other factors - the ages of the victims, the "attack sequence" (as you put it), the locations and timings of the crimes, the opinions of police and doctors - are all open to interpretation, and would have been largely outside the killer's control anyway. The wounds and mutilations were not.

Then perhaps I should have mentioned that Mary Janes killer was most probably left handed, and Mary Anns and Annie's was not.....something like those qualifiers?

I can believe that there are small segments of the population that are truly ambidextrous, Ive seen the statistics of such a survey done by accredited organizations and see that only a small percentage of any given population would be truly categorized as ambidextrous...or truly and primarily left handed.....but to imagine one killer whose right hand cutting style reminds some physicians of post mortem rooms and operating theaters and his left hand cutting style reminds them of someone less skilled with a knife than a slaughterhouse man.....well thats a real rare birdy there.

The circumstantial elements are critical pieces of evidence that suggest intentions and actions by the killer and the victim....to say that they are open to interpretations and invalid in any science function is to say that more than half the evidence that exists in any Ripper crime is useless. Something I disagree with strongly.

The circumstances are not necessarily set upon the killer...they may well represent his intentions. Jack didnt have to kill Mary indoors because thats where she was that night or that where he found her.....thats a lousy argument and one Id like to see tossed myself. In fact its plain to see that until November 8th, there is no indication that he would ever move indoors or desired to. Theres no evidence that suggests Jack the Ripper ever killed indoors....there is if you add Mary Jane to Jacks list first.

All the best my friend.

[Sam Flynn]

As I said Sam, some of the criteria would have to be based on the physical aspects and its evidence

ALL the useful criteria, I'd say, for that's the only objective evidence in existence that can be attributed solely to the handiwork of the killer. The other factors - the ages of the victims, the "attack sequence" (as you put it), the locations and timings of the crimes, the opinions of police and doctors - are all open to interpretation, and would have been largely outside the killer's control anyway. The wounds and mutilations were not.

He cut Kelly's abdomen open via three flaps of flesh (as he did with Annie), he drew out her intestines (as he did with Annie and Kate), he slashed her face (as he did with Kate), removed her womb (as with Annie and Kate) and her kidneys (as with Kate again, albeit singular in her case).

..."some" of the criteria? "technically"? Good grief!

As I said Sam, some of the criteria would have to be based on the physical aspects and its evidence, and in Marys case, of course youre right, there are certain unique characteristics that are present physically that are very much Ripper type "signatures". Thats why I came back and mentioned 2 of them. There is also some physical evidence in that room that can fairly be described as similar to Ripper crimes, but not the same. One problem with accepting the physical evidence and excluding any contrary circumstantial evidence would be that when the flaps were taken from Annie it hadnt been in the press beforehand, excising and absconding with organs had been reported, and in many cases, quite explicitly....and there are other circumstantial bits that are characteristically not Ripperesque.....2 being ones I mentioned, the sequence of the attack and Mary James age.

Since the sequence present in the case of Mary Ann and Annie and Kate allows for the possibility that the women never fought with the killer while he had his knife out...Marys defensive wounds would be something that deviates from that pattern.

I know that Lynn was just suggesting some even more granular ideas for the profile we could use to pattern match characteristics, both physical and circumstantial, but my thinking is that the profile be as broad as possible while maintaining some integrity.......i.e, victims without any of the characteristics present would be excluded in the same way that suspects have been excluded based on their whereabouts on only one or 2 Ripper murders.

Some filters like these maybe;

1-40% Value
The presence of Severe Throat Cuts:
Stabs are dissimilar throat wounds, and the depth and manner must be dramatic

2-15% Value
Mutilation of the Victims Body Post Mortem: Might be best to not restrict him to one specific area, although severe throat cuts with abdominal mutilations would be highly probable matches

3-15% Value
Attack Sequence:
note: in Ripper murders C1, C2 and C4 the sequence seems identical, and none of those victims show signs that they struggled while capable of doing so with their killer... while he was using his knife

4-15% Value
Victim Age Range/Gender:
Statistically the approximate age of Mary Jane is unique within the Canonical Group, therefore the 80% of remaining alleged victims age range should suffice.....middle aged, say 35-50. I would think that looking at women as victims only would be wisest, but maybe a murder of a man might have some features that are compelling

5-15%
Geographical Location/Range:
My thinking is to start to look at events within a 50% larger circle than is made using the less than square mile he actually kills in.....say 1.5 square mile radius with somewhere near the Commercial and Wentworth intersection as the central point......I dont believe the murders must be outdoors, but those would be strongly considered. I think he walks to kills and thats supported by the tight grouping of alleged victims.

Tell you what, let me review some stats and cases from the start of 1887 to the end of 1889, including the C Group of course, and Ill state my case using the filters....see if its of value.

As the T1 says....."Ill be back".
Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

technically Mary Jane does meet some of the criteria.....her neck was severely cut, and at some points, he mutilated her abdomen.

He cut Kelly's abdomen open via three flaps of flesh (as he did with Annie), he drew out her intestines (as he did with Annie and Kate), he slashed her face (as he did with Kate), removed her womb (as with Annie and Kate) and her kidneys (as with Kate again, albeit singular in her case).

..."some" of the criteria? "technically"? Good grief!