Cry Murder!

[Archaic]

"Screaming Bloody Murder"

I wonder what the origin of the phrase "screaming bloody murder" is? Because nowadays we use it in a deliberately satirical, exaggerated kind of way & apply it to anyone making a big noisy fuss. We use it as an idiomatic phrase, usually when telling a humorous anecdote. I guess a couple of similarly-used phrases would be "crying their eyes out" or "raising the roof".

I don't think I've ever heard it used to describe an instance where someone really was screaming about a bloody murder!

OK, let's see if Sam can pull the answer out of his sleeve, and tell us the exact year, day & time the phrase "screaming bloody murder" entered popular speech.
He probably can. I'm guessing it was probably around the time that "Oh, Murder!" went out.

Best Regards, Archaic

PS: Frank, your English is really good! English is a weird language & even native speakers have trouble with it; don't despair. You're doing great.

[Celesta]

Deja-vu

This thread discusses all of this.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...ight=oh+murder

[prowling cat]

As a young girl living alone in th early 80s I was told that in the event of someone attacking me, the best cry was "fire!", because if I were to call rape or any other thing, chances were, nobody would open a window or intervene. I luckily have never had to try this out, but it makes one think...

Just to add a little about this phrase. My grandpaents both grew up in east london and while I cant say I ever heard someone say Oh Murder when they where being killed I often heard my grandparents say it when they where frustrated with something. Not as a replacement for the suprised phrase of Oh Sh*t but more for the angry phrase of G*d D*mn it. grandma passed 20 years ago but my 98 year old grandfather is still alive I will have to ask him about the origins of the phrase when I see him this coming week.

Again smezenen, an interpretation that shows the phrase is perfectly compatible with frustration, annoyance, anger,....any one of which or all may be feelings someone would have when woken to a hangover or headache likely of gargantuan proportions, by someone either expected but resented, or not expected.

HELP....that was used to call for help often. "Oh-murder", as we can see, is not as clearly suggestive of imminent danger.

Cheers smezenen

[smezenen]

Maybe this is just another stupid question but I am a little confused about that.

In the night of Mary Jane Kelly's murder the witnesses Kennedy, Lewis and Prater heard a cry of "Murder!" from the direction of Kelly's room shortly before 4.00 a.m.
In the Tabram case it was mentioned that these cries were rather frequent in such a rough district.

I am no native speaker and so I wonder if it is common to cry "Murder!" instead of something like "Help!"

Best regards,
Frank

Just to add a little about this phrase. My grandpaents both grew up in east london and while I cant say I ever heard someone say Oh Murder when they where being killed I often heard my grandparents say it when they where frustrated with something. Not as a replacement for the suprised phrase of Oh Sh*t but more for the angry phrase of G*d D*mn it. grandma passed 20 years ago but my 98 year old grandfather is still alive I will have to ask him about the origins of the phrase when I see him this coming week.

Isn't it more logical to conclude that, if the scream Prater heard coincided with Kelly's death, then she was killed around 3:45 and no earlier?

Hi Sam,

If the scream that was heard at approx 3:45am by Sarah and Elizabeth was Mary as she is first being attacked, then Id expect as I said to have evidence that some scuffle would immediately ensue and that Elizabeth, who actually referred to hearing Mary move about in the past and aside from her stairs observations, would have heard at the least sounds from a room that is part of the same house downstairs. Sarah and Elizabeth both listened for sounds to follow to determine the danger, if any, that was a cause for that cry, and none was heard. Liz went back to sleep.

So if the cry wasnt Mary, then she could already be dead...we do have the loiterer there much earlier than 3:45am...and Blotchy likely with her till at least 1:30am.

If she is the source, and she isnt in the process of actually calling for help.....which to me might be best heard by the phrase "HELP" or "HELP ME", then you have to explain why she would be startled by her killer but not engaging in an immediate fracas with him or causing any further noise.

When would you likely hear a startled utterance and little or no noise following? Well...One occasion might be when one party was woken suddenly and unexpectedly in the middle of the night after being passed out half undressed on the bed for over 2 hours.

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

Elizabeth Prater was in that same house, and testified she could hear when Mary moved about in her room.

... which Prater mentioned at the point in her testimony where she described her passing the partition on her ascent of the stairs; in the same sense, she "could have seen" the light through the gap in the partition, but that doesn't mean she said that she could do either once she was in her room.

Not strictly relevant to this thread, maybe, but it does no harm to remind ourselves of such things, once in a while

Mary was attacked with a knife and moved her left arm to block slashes or blows....

The only wounds that showed extravasation of blood in the skin were a small cut on Kelly's left thumb and a few abrasions on the back of her left hand. This suggests to me that Kelly might have brought her left hand up in a vain effort to push the knife away - either that, or she clutched instinctively at her throat and suffered minor collateral damage from the knife as a consequence.

It's worth remembering that Bond reports that both arms and forearms - i.e. left and right - had "extensive jagged wounds", and no extravasation is noted in respect of them. As far as one can tell from the photograph of the left arm, those jagged wounds are comparatively "clean". That is, there are no rivulets or patches of "oozed" blood on the skin either side of the wounds, as one might expect if they were inflicted whilst the circulation was still viable.

Bearing those factors in mind - i.e., both arms and forearms had sustained cuts, and those cuts were comparatively "clean", with no reported extravasation - it's probable that the cuts were inflicted after death.

Id be more inclined to think this happened when Elizabeth was sleeping and didnt hear anything rather than assuming no noise was caused, so between approx 1:30 and 3:45am

That's a pretty wide margin, Mike! Isn't it more logical to conclude that, if the scream Prater heard coincided with Kelly's death, then she was killed around 3:45 and no earlier?

...edit: In that first sentence I should have phrased that "immediately after" the cry....

Cheers Frank.

Maybe it was really Mary Kelly crying "Oh, murder!" (dubbed: "Oh, sh*t") when she saw her new customer pulling out a knife. In this very moment such a first reaction would be conceivable (for me) as she recognised the Whitechapel Murderer. She couldn't then say/cry anything else because her murderer cut her throat.

Frank, the evidence suggests that she was not attacked after that cry. Elizabeth Prater was in that same house, and testified she could hear when Mary moved about in her room. She was wakened before the voice, and listened for anything to follow to see if this was a real cry for help...she heard no noise following the cry, she decided this was like many other nights when she heard similar things...and she testified she fell back asleep 5 minutes later.

Mary was attacked with a knife and moved her left arm to block slashes or blows....ergo, she was conscious and alive when the attack began...maybe not fully awake. But she struggled with him some.

Id be more inclined to think this happened when Elizabeth was sleeping and didnt hear anything rather than assuming no noise was caused, so between approx 1:30 and 3:45am, or after 3:50am.

Best regards

[Frank]

Maybe it was really Mary Kelly crying "Oh, murder!" (dubbed: "Oh, sh*t") when she saw her new customer pulling out a knife. In this very moment such a first reaction would be conceivable (for me) as she recognised the Whitechapel Murderer. She couldn't then say/cry anything else because her murderer cut her throat.

Makes more sense than it being an actual cry for help. Either that or I always assumed it to be an expression used by someone who was fed up, kind of like a sigh of exasperation.

If you were being murdered, you wouldn't say something so stupid as that, no matter how Victorian you are. I'd have thought you'd scream the f*cking gaff down, not literally tell everyone what's actually happening to you.

The above in bold is interesting when considering if uttered by Mary, she may have been waking up as she said it.

But Sams suggestions can be as benign as the above suggests too.

Cheers M & P

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Well, if she did literally cry murder, then I'm only surprised she didn't scream ohmyboobisgettingstuffedundermyhead inbetween the mutilations, because that's how ridiculous it is to imagine.

If you're in serious, genuine danger of being slaughtered, you scream your lungs out and not much else.

[IchabodCrane]

But I think the volume would be much different whether you're crying (most often I imagine would be more like mumbling to yourself) 'oh, murder' meaning s**t, and crying 'murder' out for help. The latter one would be much more audible. And if Robert is correct, then the usage suggests it would often be heard cried out loud when under attack, and assaults on women would have been frequent Whitechapel at the time, not least I assume quarrels between husband and wife that could turn violent. Whence a woman would cry 'Murder' to attract other peoples attention to her husband abusing her.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Makes more sense than it being an actual cry for help. Either that or I always assumed it to be an expression used by someone who was fed up, kind of like a sigh of exasperation.

If you were being murdered, you wouldn't say something so stupid as that, no matter how Victorian you are. I'd have thought you'd scream the f*cking gaff down, not literally tell everyone what's actually happening to you.

[Sam Flynn]

I wonder whether "Oh, Murder!" wasn't a euphemism for the blasphemous usage of "Oh, Mother (of God)"? A bit like "My goodness" ("My God") or "Jeepers creepers" (Jesus Christ)?