Cry Murder!

[Sam Flynn]

Possibly, Gareth, although Sarah Lewis did specify "loud" without then being asked why she took no further action.

Prater gave her testimony first, so she wouldn't have known about that - which is why I get the impression that she was caught out in a lie.

When Lewis's turn came, she described the (single) scream as "loud", but immediately followed it up with "I took no notice of it", thus obviating any need for that question. In so doing, she at least remained consistent with her police statement, in which she said that she didn't bother looking out of the window after having heard the scream.

There's no evidence that she engaged in any amateur dramatics when giving her evidence, however.

Lewis makes up for it elsewhere, though, with her insistence on letting the world know about her "Bethnal Green Botherer". The way Lewis goes on about it, one could swear that she was at the trial of the BGB himself, rather than the inquest of the latest WM victim!

[Ben]

Back-pedalling, because she was put on the spot? I reckon so. If she'd said it was loud, the next question might have been, "Why didn't you do anything about it, then?".

Possibly, Gareth, although Sarah Lewis did specify "loud" without then being asked why she took no further action. There's no evidence that she engaged in any amateur dramatics when giving her evidence, however.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

...Which would have created quite an amusing incident if, after delivering a "dramatic" and "forceful" imitation of Kelly's murder cry, complete with actions, she then responded to the question "How loud was the cry?",with "Oh, it was only faint and suppressed".

Back-pedalling, because she was put on the spot? I reckon so. If she'd said it was loud, the next question might have been, "Why didn't you do anything about it, then?". Her "I often hear such cries" statement might have been another bit of improvised arse-covering, when seen in that context.

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

This was after she'd imparted the information referred to in my snippet from the Daily News

...Which would have created quite an amusing incident if, after delivering a "dramatic" and "forceful" imitation of Kelly's murder cry, complete with actions, she then responded to the question "How loud was the cry?",with "Oh, it was only faint and suppressed".

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

"a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!"

- From the Daily News, as reproduced by Gareth.

Anyone else find the above description to be heavily at odds with Prater's claim, published in most other press accounts, to have heard only a "faint" or "suppressed" emanation?

Thing is, Ben, Prater changes her mind between her police statement and the inquest - at least in terms of the number of screams she claims to have heard. Another reason to treat her testimony with suspicion.

For info, she seems only to volunteer the description of the volume of the scream (singular, by now) when prompted by a question at the inquest. This was after she'd imparted the information referred to in my snippet from the Daily News.

[Sam Flynn]

On a side note, ‘praten’ is common Dutch for ‘to talk’ and a ‘prater’ is someone who talks or likes to talk. Funny to discover that yet another English word is virtually the same in Dutch. I didn’t even know that ‘prate’ and ‘prater’ existed in English.

Indeed they do, Frank - although these days one is more likely to use the derivatives "prattle" and "prattler". I wonder whether these words share a common ancestry with the German "prahlen", meaning to "boast", "bluster" or "show off".

[Ben]

"a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!"

- From the Daily News, as reproduced by Gareth.

Anyone else find the above description to be heavily at odds with Prater's claim, published in most other press accounts, to have heard only a "faint" or "suppressed" emanation?

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

So how old exactly was Elizabeth Prater , resident of millers court in 1888?

Chris Scott's census research in his splendid JTR: A Cast of Thousands would make Elizabeth Prater 45 years old in 1888.

[Sam Flynn]

As it is on record that the discription of the cry was similar to awakening from a bad dream, why is not impossible that it was just that?

It's not impossible, Rich, but I struggle to understand why a scream "as if waking from a nightmare" sounds any different from a scream "as if fully awake" - or "as if falling off a cliff", "as if about to be run over by a train", etc etc, for that matter. A scream is a scream - and any suggestion from an effectively "blind" witness as to what preceded it has to count as, if not exaggeration and sensationalism, then pure supposition at least. Besides, in my experience, one awakens from a nightmare with an "Uhhh!", not a scream.

What makes this affair all the more suspicious is that Prater was some distance away from Kelly when she heard it (if she really heard it), and Sarah Lewis (if indeed she really heard it), just across the court, described it differently. It may be that only one witness really heard something (or made it up - Lewis was evidently of the gossipy type also) and that the other was just jumping on the bandwagon - "Oh, I heard it too!".

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Everytime i talk about Prater, i have visions of a middle aged hag, but that account describes her as Young, and her account of talking to McCarthy on her way home in the early hours of the 9th, also has her using the term 'waiting for my young man'.
So how old exactly was Elizabeth Prater , resident of millers court in 1888?
Regards Richard.

[FrankO]

"prater" = "one who indulges in empty, foolish, or trivial talk; idle chatterer"

On a side note, ‘praten’ is common Dutch for ‘to talk’ and a ‘prater’ is someone who talks or likes to talk. Funny to discover that yet another English word is virtually the same in Dutch. I didn’t even know that ‘prate’ and ‘prater’ existed in English.

Best,
Frank

[richardnunweek]

Hi Sam.
We simply cannot take any witnesses literally, however as Praters explanation given in 1888, and Watkins Lottie, some three years later, both refer to a nightmare/bad dream, we have some basis, in which to form an opinion.
The Term used 'Oh Murder' by Prater at the inquest, could well refer to MJK, having a reoccurrence of the dream ,that she informed lottie about, in which she was being murdered, in which case the act of murder in a dream , could have awoken kelly crying out those actual words.
We know from Barnetts own mouth, that he used to read all about the murders to Mary, he claims she asked him to do it, which if so, could have made her paranoid, and brought on a horrid dream.
If it was Barnett that wanted to read every bit about the murders to Mary, it could have brought on the same response.
We know she was very frightened, of going out alone, so it is surprising that she did that on thursday evening, she was i would say extremely frightened of being alone in room 13, note the sleepovers , since Barnett left,and bringing home Blotchy, and Astracan, when it was said it was not her policy to bring men back.
As it is on record that the discription of the cry was similar to awakening from a bad dream, why is not impossible that it was just that?, Praters garrulous behaviour does not make her out as a bad witness,
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

Living up to her name...

Hello Rich,

Your Prater reference presumably comes from the Daily News of 13th November 1888:

Perhaps the most sensational bit of evidence tendered was that of a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!" which she declared she had heard just after she had been woke up by her kitten rubbing its nose against her face about half-past three or four o'clock on the morning of the murder.

If the paper's description of the witness is correct, then Prater is certainly living up to her name ("garrulous" = "given to excessive and often trivial or rambling talk"; "prater" = "one who indulges in empty, foolish, or trivial talk; idle chatterer"). In addition, we have the observation that she "imitated by voice and action" in a "dramatic manner" the kind of scream she'd heard, although how she'd have known which actions would have been appropriate is a mystery, given that she couldn't see what Kelly was doing at the time.

Taking that pen-portrait of Prater into consideration, the phrase "melodramatic gossip" strikes me as a fair summary of how she came across at the inquest. On that basis, we should treat her description of the "nightmare cry" with more than a degree of caution. We certainly can't take it literally.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
I will assume that the cry'Oh Murder' was the term used, from Mrs Praters recollection, as she was the only one that gave a oral description of it at the inquest, and she refered to it ''Like awakening from a nightmare'
My suggestion[ for many years] was that the cry of 'Oh Murder' was precisely that ie, Mary awakening from a troubled dream , and infact was not being attacked at all, at that point.
If this cry had not taken place , at the hour it happened around 4am, then i bet a pound to a penny , that the estimated time of death, would not be a foregone conclusion, that many members believe it to be.
If one reads Kit Watkins report a few years after, the interview [ alleged] with court resident lottie, makes very intresting reading'
'She told me she had a bad dream, in which she was being murdered', mayby i shall be next she said'
That happened shortly before kellys actual death, sometime after the double event, as Lottie said 'and she was the next,
As the subject of the dream was being murdered, then rather apt is it not?, that the cry out stated 'Oh Murder'.
If the witnesses that claimed to have seen kelly alive in the morning. were telling the truth, then that would explain it.... she was not dead, just the 'Horrors of drink' around 4am.
Its that simple.
Regards Richard,

[Sam Flynn]

I wonder what the origin of the phrase "screaming bloody murder" is?

"Screaming blue murder" (which is the more familiar expression to me) is apparently an anglicisation of the French exclamation "morbleu!", which in itself is a euphemised contraction of "mort de Dieu!" ("God's death!"). The earliest reference I have found to "blue murder" in public literature is in a book of popular rhymes and glees dated 1828. As such, I suspect that the phrase was imported into English around the time of the French Revolution or the subsequent Napoleonic Wars.