Cry Murder!

[Sam Flynn]

She said 'Goodnight my pretty, she always called me that' [ Prater 9pm 8th nov].

That last one loses its impact a bit, Rich, when you consider that it's prefaced by Prater claiming that she herself said "Good night, old dear" to Mary Kelly, who was almost half her age. If anything, the two greetings should be reversed in order to give this passage anything resembling the ring of truth - by the same report, it was Kelly who was "tall, pretty and fair as a lily", after all.

To be honest, this sounds like sentimental guff to me - either of Prater's or the newspaper's invention.

[richardnunweek]

Hi all,
Yet again we are taking the view that all witnesses are unreliable, even though we are 121 years futher on in time, they were there then, we obviously were not.
Just because [ in this case] the court residents, were in some cases gin sodden, they were only feet away from a gruesome murder, and i for one would suggest that we dont tar them all with the same brush.
Elizabeth prater, for what is is worth, i believe to be one of the most reliable ones,
When looking at witnesses statements, i always look for sentences or remarks, that a liar is unlikely to muster up.
For eg,
The Berner street quote. 'You will say anything but your prayers'
'She had her hand on his chest[ Lawande]
'Have you seen a man and woman pass this way'?[ Bleinkensop]
'Oh i have lost my hankerchief [Hutchinson]
'She came down the passage, she had her jacket and bonnet on, i do not own such things' [Elizabeth Prater].
She said 'Goodnight my pretty, she always called me that' [ Prater 9pm 8th nov].
These quotes imply truth. at least to me, although that may not be the case in all cases, witnesses who do show that trait, i tend to give the benefit of the doubt.
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

If we are playing within the realm of possibility however improbable or unsupportable...

Have you actually read the vacillating testimony of these gin-sodden harpies, Mike? If you want to gauge the probability of the gossip/collusion/bandwagoning scenario, look no further.

[Sam Flynn]

...which leaves us with a silent slashing at her face and throat on her bed while she tried to fend off slices with her left arm...

Once more, Mike, she almost certainly did not fend off the slices with her left arm. There were jagged wounds (not "linear" wounds, as one might expect from a sharp knife-cut) on both her arms and forearms. None of those wounds were reported as showing signs of extravasation. Furthermore, as we can see from the photograph, there doesn't appear to have been any "seepage" of blood onto the flesh either side of the wounds on her left arm. Taking all this into account, it's a safe bet that those wounds were inflicted after the circulation had ceased. The same would be true of the facial wounds, and for the same reasons.

Apart from the cut throat, the only wounds that seem to have been inflicted whilst Mary was still alive were a small cut on her left thumb, and possibly some abrasions on the back of her left hand.

It seems that all the witnesses were kept in Miller's Court until 5PM on the day after the murder, after which the police left them go. Unless they were forcibly separated and kept under individual police guard, they'd have had plenty of time to swap stories. Note that what I'm suggesting isn't necessarily conspiratorial, only that Prater may have heard a scream, and that Lewis provided the words, or vice versa. It's also possible that one or other of them was bandwagoning ("Oh, I heard that, too!").

If we are playing within the realm of possibility however improbable or unsupportable....then I agree Gareth.

At present, we have no reason to discount or disbelieve anything they say on record. And all they tell us is that the cry came from the court....neither said Mary or Marys room. Perhaps in the improbable category they could have conspired or altered their stories to suggest that Mary or Marys room was the source of the cry too. Since that is just about the most probable source for the cry based on any post murder reflections.

They didnt though.

Best regards Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

To a point Sam made about whether or not the women actually heard a cry or not, unless you can prove some type of collusion, the fact they are in different locations and don't know each other

It seems that all the witnesses were kept in Miller's Court until 5PM on the day after the murder, after which the police left them go. Unless they were forcibly separated and kept under individual police guard, they'd have had plenty of time to swap stories. Note that what I'm suggesting isn't necessarily conspiratorial, only that Prater may have heard a scream, and that Lewis provided the words, or vice versa. It's also possible that one or other of them was bandwagoning ("Oh, I heard that, too!").

Hi all,

To a point Sam made about whether or not the women actually heard a cry or not, unless you can prove some type of collusion, the fact they are in different locations and don't know each other to our knowledge and both gave roughly the same time and phrasing...and the closest one heard it the loudest, you almost certainly have a cry by a woman at that time, which sounded to them as if it was from the courtyard.

I know you've tried to slip that by before Sam, but they effectively corroborate each others story.

We have precedent within the Ripper coverage for at least 2 women to suggest that they heard cries like that phrase often at night, and due to that, they didnt pay it any real attention. They listened for more, to be sure that it wasnt actually signaling any danger or murder, and when satisfied by the lack of noise suggesting such an event after the cries, they disregarded them.

Just as both Liz and Sarah do that night....both must have listened for a follow-up, Liz even says she heard nothing more.

That is what I use to suggest the attack on Mary wasnt commenced when "oh-murder" is spoken....which leaves us with a silent slashing at her face and throat on her bed while she tried to fend off slices with her left arm....(no noise from a plank floor and what is Im sure a squeaky bed?), ...or no attack immediately following the cry. Which would suggest the cry was as characterized and assumed by the 2 ear witnesses...not a call for help.

If thats the case, why would Mary yell that and then be silent if still in the company of the person who caused her to exclaim the remark? If not someone she already knows.

Best regards all.

[Archaic]

Hearing, Memory & Perception

Thanks, Sam; I knew you'd come through!

There's a very common human phenomenon of simply "forgetting" the various conversations & audio stimuli one hears in a day or in a night, unless something unusual happens shortly afterward which helps you to recall one sound in particular and also imbues it with new significance.

I can see how if a Miller's Court resident had heard a cry of "Oh, Murder!" at ANY point in time recent enough to still be stored in their short-term memory, and subsequently learned that Mary Kelly was murdered, and at about what time, this might naturally color their memory of WHEN they heard WHAT.

And this slight shift in memory/perception could happen subconsciously, even in someone with completely honest intentions who wasn't trying to garner 5 minutes of fame, but only wanted to help.

Of course, it could happen even more easily to someone predisposed to earn their moment in the limelight.

Best regards, Archaic

[smezenen]

Again smezenen, an interpretation that shows the phrase is perfectly compatible with frustration, annoyance, anger,....any one of which or all may be feelings someone would have when woken to a hangover or headache likely of gargantuan proportions, by someone either expected but resented, or not expected.

HELP....that was used to call for help often. "Oh-murder", as we can see, is not as clearly suggestive of imminent danger.

Cheers smezenen

I agree with most of your statement Michael, however being one who has experieced many hangovers and headaches I dont think she was yelling Oh Murder loud enough for neighbors to here it if seh had either of these conditions as a yell would only make the problem worse, especialy if it where of gargantuan proportions.

[Ben]

I agree, Gareth; that would make sense.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Probably because it sounded faint to her, given her location. A cry that would seem loud to someone living directly opposite (with windows seperated by a scant few feet), as Lewis was, would probably sound "faint" to someone living on the floor above.

I wouldn't dispute that, Ben - indeed, I agree completely. My point was simply that Prater could not have heard the words distinctly from her vantage point, and that what was to her a diffuse, muffled noise almost certainly would have needed the details filled in by Lewis.

[Ben]

Given that Prater (eventually) describes the scream as faint, and that Prater herself was on the floor above Kelly

Probably because it sounded faint to her, given her location. A cry that would seem loud to someone living directly opposite (with windows seperated by a scant few feet), as Lewis was, would probably sound "faint" to someone living on the floor above.

I'm inclined to agree with your observation re the Bethnal Botherer, though. The emphasis given to this high-hatted man with a shiny black bag may have obfuscated potentially more significant aspects of her account.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

I don't think Prater invented the "Oh murder" cry, though

Given that Prater (eventually) describes the scream as faint, and that Prater herself was on the floor above Kelly, I can't believe that she could have heard any specific words. "Mnn! Mnn-Mnnn!", perhaps - with Lewis providing the missing vowels and consonants. That assumes that there really was anything to hear, of course. I can't help observing that Lewis comes across as more of a "prater" than Prater herself, and - scream or not - I'm inclined to treat both women's stories with caution.

[Ben]

I don't think Prater invented the "Oh murder" cry, though, even if she did over-egg the pudding when recounting of the episode. She wouldn't have had much to fear from being asked why she didn't take action, since any questioning along those lines could easily be countered with "I was a single woman, alone, and thus too scared to investigate". She had, after all, barricaded her door.

All the best,
Ben

[FrankO]

Hi Gareth,

I know it's not an appropriate thread for this (maybe we should create one?), but a glance on Google revealed that 'prattle' probably has its ancestry in the Middle Low German ‘pratelen’. I think ‘prattle’ may be a contraction of ‘prate’ and ‘rattle’. In Dutch ‘pratelen’ exists, although it’s not a common word anymore. It seems a contraction of ‘praten’ and ‘ratelen’ (= to rattle) and means something like ‘to talk incessantly’.

Cheers,
Frank