Something that has bothered me...

[Sam Flynn]

Today I have found an SK who speaks about what I have been considering as JTRs motive for the crimes. Like I said maybe its about cutting the flesh? his guy is about as bad as it gets but pay attention to what he says about his facination with stab wounds and how they look.

He actually talks about his fascination with cutting - "seeing the blade making a slice", and watching the wound open.

Thanks for the link, Mitch - sickening though it was.

[Mitch Rowe]

I think JTR made a compromise with Eddowes. He uses the time he saves skipping some steps to good effect mutilating the face. My guess is JTR always wanted to mutilate the face. He may have even wanted to take Annies head home with him so that he could do what he did to MJKs face.

I think JTR has more of a fetish for cutting flesh than for organ procurement. He may have only been taking the organs to satisfy his need to fascinate himself with cutting flesh. He cuts it in different ways at home. He is not thinking of the organ as anything other than a different kind of flesh to cut.

This would explain why he cuts MJKs inner legs to the bone. Its the cutting of the flesh he enjoys. I dont think he much into anatomy.

Today I have found an SK who speaks about what I have been considering as JTRs motive for the crimes. Like I said maybe its about cutting the flesh?
This guy is about as bad as it gets but pay attention to what he says about his facination with stab wounds and how they look. Its right at 4:00.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3zBo_My9RU

[Sam Flynn]

But there seemed to be enough to cause MacNaghten to make the all damning C5 statement.

I wouldn't say it was "all-damning", Mitch - although (what has become) the "C5" has become a bit of an albatross, if you ask me. (Ditto the "C3" suspects on MM's little list.)

That aside, there is certainly enough commonality in four of the five murders to warrant a more-than-tentative linkage, and the fifth (Stride) may be included by association with the "Double Event". An association which, for many, pre-dates Macnaghten's memorandum by just over five years.

[Malcolm X]

Many people I have seen discuss which murders were Jack's and which weren't seem to discount Mary Jane Kelly as one of Jack's victims because her uterus was left behind. That logic doesn't seem to jibe with what we do know about Jack the Ripper. We have uteri or partial uteri taken from - what? - 2 maybe 3 of the canonical 5? Now Stride must be eliminated from this altogether so out of 4 victims - if we include Kelly - we have:

3 uteri/partial uteri
1 Kidney
1 Heart
4 Disembowled
2 Facial mutilations

When thought of in this way, it seems that Jack the Ripper wasn't necessarily concerned with the uterus/womb only. As he started, he seems interested in them...as he progressed, his intentions/interests seem to vary...by the time he gets to Eddowes, he is interested in kidneys and facial mutilation...Maybe his intended use/fantasy of the uterus didn't pan out...maybe they just didn't "keep" well...don't know. What I do know is that many discount MJK as a victim because of the heart being taken and the uterus being left behind. I believe that the police's idea that this was all one man is valid. When viewed objectively - which isn't truly possible, but try - Jack seems to be exploring/experimenting as we go along culminating in Kelly's death. If MJK is discounted, we must then rethink Eddowes...which is nonsense, of course.

Anyway, that has stuck in me craw for awhile and was just aching to get it out...thanks for the ears/eyes.

Blues

Kelly had very similar face mutilations to Eddowes, her throat was seriously cut, the killer waits till the victim dies/ blood drains out etc, similar time of death.....and the knife used is razor sharp ( this is quite important) this mutilation was barbaric/hideous and quite imbecilic, but all it really is; is a progression in butchery from the Eddowes murder, due to the fact that the killer was indoors and had much more time..it's an escalation in savagery.

Stride was a definite Ripper victim ( in my opinion ), his choice of locality was Dutfield's; not the victim; any woman seen loitering too close to those gates would have been good enough.....

he failed, so he went in search of another victim that night...and it had to be that night

it looks like the Ripper was exploring Kelly's body with his knife, in a very monstrous/childish way... a real screwball, it's the stuff of nightmares... i have no idea what the hell was going on, it looks like a `` Black Magic, Satanic thing``...a type of human Sacrafice... with her heart ripped out like the Aztecs' used to do ( it's all pure speculation)

because Ivor Edwardes used to say that these murders/ blood sacrafices are all located exactly on the V.P, and he's dead right, whatever the case; we're missing something here, i can sense it.

[Mitch Rowe]

There is very little consistency in all the eviscerating murders, Mitch - on the contrary, it seems that Jack was improvising on the spot on each occasion.

But there seemed to be enough to cause MacNaghten to make the all damning C5 statement. After that the stage was set. Any other murders thought to be connected with the Ripper will never be as important as the C5.

I have no doubt MacNaghten wasnt shooting his mouth off when he shut out the other murders. I wont even make the statement and its only gonna affect me. And I know exactly where MacNaghten was coming from because I see the same patterns he did.

I will agree with you that JTR improvised. But one only improvises out of necessity. And thats what Im saying. If JTR has nothing to do with Strides murder it appears he has improvised for no reason.

Why wouldnt he want to find an out of the way place like 29 Hanbury again? I guess you could say CE and JTR wanted to go behind the fence but it was locked. But then why try it? Theres always a better location. Somewhere where the women are predictable. Where you can count on em to take ya to an out of the way area where no one can see.

One merely has to look at the victims possesions inventories to see that Eddowes was different from JTRs typical victim.

Without Stride JTRs bahavior is not typical when we look at Eddowes murder. But when we include Stride and the interruption theory then JTRs behavior can be explained. Stride seems to me like his next typical victim. Dutfields Yard also seems to me like JTRs next pick for a location.

[Ben]

Hi M&P,

He wasn't violent when instituionalized which is something I would've expected at some point had he been the Ripper

No particularly good reason to expect it, given what we know of other serial killers, most notably Ed Gein who was fairly harmless in captivity, more so than Fleming who was at least reported as having been abusive.

There's actually no reason whatsoever for him to have killed any of the canonical victims other than perhaps MJK at a stretch

What possible "reason" would you be looking for beyond the pleasure derived from satisfaction at the murder and mutilation itself? It would be frutiless to go in search of any motive beyond that.

but going by what we know of him he just hasn't got the stomach to be an even worse killer than the Ripper

Which is handy, since there has never been any mutual exclusivity between Fleming being the ripper, and Fleming being Kelly's killer.

I think the worst thing he'd ever done (and I'm sure you will, but correct me if I'm wrong) was knock MJK about?

Which is better than most named suspects. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I don't think we can do much better than an individual who moved into the heart of the district in August 1888, was reported to have ill-used the most brutally murdered victim in the series, who had a history of criminal activity, and who was ultimately committed to a lunatic asylum where he spent the rest of his days.

But meanwhile, back on topic...

[Mitch Rowe]

We don't have sufficient detail about the cut to Kelly's neck to make any such claim. Furthermore, although the evidence is somewhat scanty, at least we know that Nichols' neck-wounds differed from that of Catherine Eddowes.

I think we do. Both Phillips and Bond use nearly the exact same words to describe the neck wounds to AC and MJK. "All Round". Phillips even says he feels JTR was doing something more to the neck than just cutting it to make sure AC is dead. But Brown says at CEs inquest: "The throat was cut across to the extent of six or seven inches."

It seems to me Pollys neck wounds were even more complete than CEs!

[Mascara & Paranoia]

M&P writes:

"The only reason I can think of for discrediting MJK as a Ripper victim is if your favored suspect is one of the Joes, who quite obviously were not the Ripper."

And to think that I´ve spent all that time believing that Joe Fleming is by far the best bid for the Ripper title!
Please provide me with the conclusive proof you have pointing away from this delusion of mine, M&P, so that I may move on to worthier subjects!

All the best from a very curious
Fisherman

I never said you were deluded... ;p Only jokin'. But on a serious note, I'm sure I've repeated my reasons for thinking so before and got no headway then so I haven't got the energy to really go in-depth with something that'll likely be overlooked again, but the short version is: He wasn't violent when instituionalized which is something I would've expected at some point had he been the Ripper. There's actually no reason whatsoever for him to have killed any of the canonical victims other than perhaps MJK at a stretch - but going by what we know of him he just hasn't got the stomach to be an even worse killer than the Ripper - it's silly to think otherwise. I think the worst thing he'd ever done (and I'm sure you will, but correct me if I'm wrong) was knock MJK about? That doesn't exactly equate to serial killer, or even killer in general, and if true it just proves he was your run-of-the-mill bastard and not much else. There's probably more but as suspects go, Fleming bores me so I just can't muster up the energy to carry on.

[Sam Flynn]

But there's evident progression when comparing Chapman's murder to Nichols.

There's nothing in the sequence from Chapman to Eddowes, and Eddowes to Kelly, that can't also be explained by progression, Mitch. Certainly, in terms of "escalation", the Canonical (disemboweled) Four come close to defining the standard.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

And there I was thinking that Jack hastily heaved them out of his way, so he could "operate" on the lower abdominal organs more quickly.

Obviously.

But there's evident progression when comparing Chapman's murder to Nichols.

[Sam Flynn]

It's the same reason why Jack lifted Chapman's intestines over her shoulder and procured organs for the first time: progression.

And there I was thinking that Jack hastily heaved them out of his way, so he could "operate" on the lower abdominal organs more quickly.

[Sam Flynn]

Eddowes cut to the neck is not the same as AC and MJK.

We don't have sufficient detail about the cut to Kelly's neck to make any such claim. Furthermore, although the evidence is somewhat scanty, at least we know that Nichols' neck-wounds differed from that of Catherine Eddowes.

The opening of the abdomen is different than AC and MJK.

True, but it also differs from Nichols'.

The removal of the organs seems more crude with Eddowes.

If anything, Eddowes' death was more the more "sophisticated" - I use the term very loosely - because there was only one, long cut to her abdomen, albeit rough and jagged, and no abdominal flesh was detached.

There is very little consistency in all the eviscerating murders, Mitch - on the contrary, it seems that Jack was improvising on the spot on each occasion.

[Mitch Rowe]

That doesn't make much sense, Mitch.

Besides...



We do. It's the same reason why Jack lifted Chapman's intestines over her shoulder and procured organs for the first time: progression. If Jack was interrupted with either of the victims, true, it would've been with Nichols, but I just don't think he was interrupted with that murder and he did what he set out to do with her. Her body seemed to have been left a little while before Cross discovered it. But at the same time, if you think that Eddowes' face was mutilated because he couldn't satisfy himself with Stride's corpse, then why would Jack do the same and a hell of a lot more to Kelly? Looking thoroughly at the stuff surrounding her murder, Stride seems an unlikely Ripper victim and is only believed to be one of his simply due to coincidence (namely Jack ripping outside of Whitechapel for the first and only time on the same night).

I think JTR made a compromise with Eddowes. He uses the time he saves skipping some steps to good effect mutilating the face. My guess is JTR always wanted to mutilate the face. He may have even wanted to take Annies head home with him so that he could do what he did to MJKs face.

I think JTR has more of a fetish for cutting flesh than for organ procurement. He may have only been taking the organs to satisfy his need to fascinate himself with cutting flesh. He cuts it in different ways at home. He is not thinking of the organ as anything other than a different kind of flesh to cut.

This would explain why he cuts MJKs inner legs to the bone. Its the cutting of the flesh he enjoys. I dont think he much into anatomy.

[DarkPassenger]

Peter Sutcliffe's victims were not all clear-cut Yorkshire Ripper victims if you went on the specifics of method alone. There are four Ripper victims and one questionable victim (Stride).

[Mitch Rowe]

Eddowes cut to the neck is not the same as AC and MJK.
The opening of the abdomen is different than AC and MJK.
The removal of the organs seems more crude with Eddowes.
Even the items around the bodies seems to give me a clue that something is different with Eddowes. With AC items looked as if arranged. With MJK the organs seem to be arranged but with CE it seems more random.

To me Eddowes seems like a smash and grab as compared to AC and MJK. In fact if Eddowes had no facial wounds I would say JTR made no progression from AC to CE. He in fact went in reverse.

So if we imagine JTR only has the same time with each of these three victims he is spending less time at the neck with Eddowes. Less time with the opening of the abdomen. Possibly less time thinking about how he wants to remove the organs.

There should be no reason this is happening other than CE was a hasty situation. Her body was even discovered in a short period. JTR left a clue! The apron. Its probable JTR spent less time with Eddowes before her death than any of the other C4.

So to me JTR makes little progress with CE unless you add the story of Stride and the interruption. Then it seems JTR was very clever indeed. He has taken chances and traded some actions for others. By trading some time in some areas he is able to spend time in other areas to satisfy himself.

If I compare ACs mutilations with CEs mutilations I dont see very many similarities in the way JTR was performing specific acts. But when I inlude MJK I see a combination of specific acts committed on both AC and CE.
Even to the point where I see a sort of extension of the lower abdominal wounds seen with CE. Namely now he is cutting down the inner portions of the thighs as well as taking time to remove the flaps of skin.

Gee.. I hope I havent made a mess of it so far. Im trying to explain the best I can. JTR cant be just a nutcase because he isnt getting caught and except for the double event the murders arent that close timewise.

I will try to explain more later. But if you just concentrate on the three victims AC/CE/MJK and the actions JTR took with each and consider JTR is making progress it looks like he changed direction with CE for some reason and then got back on track plus added what he learned from CE with MJK.